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d-407 valve adjust

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28 minutes ago, J-Mech said:

If you want to set the valves on a 361, 407, 360, 414, 436, 466 and a huge long list of other engines... and you want to do it in only one revolution.  You are going to set the engine on #1 TDC and adjust the intake on 1, 2, 4.  The exhaust on 1, 3, 5.  Then turn the engine one revolution and set the intake on 3, 5, 6 and the exhaust on 2, 4, 6.  

Is there anyone here who disagrees with that statement??

Anyone?

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8 minutes ago, TP from Central PA said:

I might wing it on the 7.6 Deere torn apart here, but I learned it's the same as the 292 gas, and I think the dog only ate half of all the pages of the '69 Chiltons GM tech manual so we should be able to make something work.:lol:

Have the dog help you. He should have read the pages before he ate them. The jd will never run without ether any ways so don’t worry about setting valves. I will post a pic after dinner of my latest conundrum. The dangdest predicament you don’t get yourself in.

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18 hours ago, Nebraska1206 said:

This is the differences that some are referring to.

Capture.JPG

Use this chart Nebraska 1206 postedKIMG0978.thumb.JPG.a08e0c4d8137b75678a47f76c28fa0e5.JPG, it's so much easier. IH printed it for a reason. Mine aren't quite as clean. 

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On most automotive engines I set the intake valve when the exhaust starts to open on the same cylinder, and the ehhaust when the intake starts to close on the same cylinder. 

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Well, I at least hope anyone who is seeking an answer here is able to sort through and find that answer, in the midst of the rest of the chest-beating

  • Haha 3

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37 minutes ago, dale560 said:

Have the dog help you. He should have read the pages before he ate them. The jd will never run without ether any ways so don’t worry about setting valves. I will post a pic after dinner of my latest conundrum. The dangdest predicament you don’t get yourself in.

That gave me a good laugh!  

Now, I wonder if I can use my cyclone A book to adjust the valves in my Onan?  They are both 2 cylinders?

 

 

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2 minutes ago, Nebraska1206 said:

Well, I at least hope anyone who is seeking an answer here is able to sort through and find that answer, in the midst of the rest of the chest-beating

Amazing how a simple "Yes" to the original question gets all mudded up.  

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Just now, TP from Central PA said:

That gave me a good laugh!  

Now, I wonder if I can use my cyclone A book to adjust the valves in my Onan?  They are both 2 cylinders?

 

 

No but with a belt on the pulley the A  works  great to start a old Briggs auger engine. Now setting the valves on a Briggs and Stratton takes skill.

 

so sorry for sidetracking the thread

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1 minute ago, dale560 said:

No but with a belt on the pulley the A  works  great to start a old Briggs auger engine. Now setting the valves on a Briggs and Stratton takes skill.

 

so sorry for sidetracking the thread

Maybe that is why I don't have any Briggs?:lol:

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13 minutes ago, TP from Central PA said:

Maybe that is why I don't have any Briggs?:lol:

 Briggs is bankrupt anyway....

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4 minutes ago, jass1660 said:

 Briggs is bankrupt anyway....

Not before they gave bonuses to retain "Talent":lol:

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4 minutes ago, jass1660 said:

 Briggs is bankrupt anyway....

Dad had a old 50s cast brigg auger engine durable as **** and not bad starting if you held the throttle blade  closed. He ground valves once and clearance wasn’t a cactus he always said it started harder after that. 

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Wow , I was gone on vacation and just got back , I see nothing has changed much , 60 comments on a simple valve adjustment , holy balls 😳 J Mech your something , you must love to just ague with your self !!  You should think about not trying to make people look or feel stupid that have been doing this for years 🤔 It’s not that hard if you want to help these guys , take a picture out of your service book on how to do it , simple right . Think about it 

Danny 

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3 hours ago, DirtBoyz07 said:

Wow , I was gone on vacation and just got back , I see nothing has changed much , 60 comments on a simple valve adjustment , holy balls 😳 J Mech your something , you must love to just ague with your self !!  You should think about not trying to make people look or feel stupid that have been doing this for years 🤔 It’s not that hard if you want to help these guys , take a picture out of your service book on how to do it , simple right . Think about it 

Danny 

You are right Danny.  It isn't hard.  You'd think people could figure out a simple valve adjustment on their own.  Bobbyhuron understood on page one and laid it out just like I had said.  Doesn't really matter how much you really know on this forum anyway.  If you don't have the right name, no one listens.  I guess understanding that you adjust certain intake and certain exhaust valves is too abstract a thought for even the great mechanics like TP and dale.  Gotta number the rockers or its just too hard.  This thread was mucked up by the guys trying to make me look like the idiot, not the other way around.  The guys who honestly were trying to understand finally did.

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1 hour ago, J-Mech said:

You are right Danny.  It isn't hard.  You'd think people could figure out a simple valve adjustment on their own.  Bobbyhuron understood on page one and laid it out just like I had said.  Doesn't really matter how much you really know on this forum anyway.  If you don't have the right name, no one listens.  I guess understanding that you adjust certain intake and certain exhaust valves is too abstract a thought for even the great mechanics like TP and dale.  Gotta number the rockers or its just too hard.  This thread was mucked up by the guys trying to make me look like the idiot, not the other way around.  The guys who honestly were trying to understand finally did.

Sorry we are joking with you J mech. I never said anything about adjusting the valves on a 407 ,414. Your methods works well for experienced people. Not for the casual person setting valves once a year. The problem is when you generalize all 6 cylinders together and somebody inexperienced  uses a ihc manual to set valves  on a Deere , ford or any engine that isn’t the same.

 

PS  The standard disclaimer I tell to anyone I do anything for is a pretty good chance she won’t ever  run again. And every customer I tell them. I never told you I knew anything, yet people mistakenly think I can fix a engine. The concrete guys  main full time  fixit guy and I were just laughing about this yesterday I put a inj in a n14. I just happened to stop in and was going to finish up some stuff on the long term Peugeot   engine project, concrete owner was in a uproar one of his gravel trucks was missing. he is real high strung when stressed . He told me look at it quick, I told him what the heck makes you think I know anything?  His help all agreed that I wasn’t very good, owner walked away shaking his head but we fumbled through and got it done.

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On 7/20/2020 at 12:07 PM, J-Mech said:

It's the same as any 6 cylinder inline engine.  Specs vary, procedure is the same. 

Except for those bleeping Iveco's. 

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What was the 429 Engine referred to in the IH valve lash diagram above?  What was it used in?   It’s the first I have heard of it!

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50 minutes ago, Sask466 said:

What was the 429 Engine referred to in the IH valve lash diagram above?  What was it used in?   It’s the first I have heard of it!

The DT429 engine was used in the 4100 & 4156 four wheel drive tractors.  It was also used in construction applications, but which ones, I don't know.

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my neighbor just told me someone he helped replace cam in D407 in an 856 over winter ran 1.5 hours and then stopped, chewed up the cam gear on the end of teh new cam, most all pistons had slight contact with valves so now they are wondering WTHeck happened, so i instantly thought of this thread and the complicated valve adjustments but eating up a cast gear seems like more than valve clearence? 

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37 minutes ago, searcyfarms said:

my neighbor just told me someone he helped replace cam in D407 in an 856 over winter ran 1.5 hours and then stopped, chewed up the cam gear on the end of teh new cam, most all pistons had slight contact with valves so now they are wondering WTHeck happened, so i instantly thought of this thread and the complicated valve adjustments but eating up a cast gear seems like more than valve clearence? 

It was probably in the fitment of the thrust plate between the cam gear and the nose of the camshaft.  I ran into this on the 1456 I overhauled this winter.  Was going to replace the cam gear because the backside had galled the thrust plate.  Got my cam back, thrust plate on, and cam gear set on, allowing for the thrust plate to be free between the two.  Went to torque down the cam gear nut, and suddenly I can't turn the engine.  Made a phone call to another 407 enthusiast, we discussed it, I ended up pulling the cam back out, removing the gear I'd bought to replace the old one, put the old one back on, set everything, installed, torqued the cam gear nut back down, and all was well.

It seems there can be fitment issues when swapping cams & cam gears in 361/407's, which can lead to binding on the thrust plate, possibly seizing the cam & wiping out the timing gears.  Judging by the marks on the timing cover & plate, that probably happened to that 1456 earlier in it's life, before I had it.

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22 hours ago, Nebraska1206 said:

It was probably in the fitment of the thrust plate between the cam gear and the nose of the camshaft.  I ran into this on the 1456 I overhauled this winter.  Was going to replace the cam gear because the backside had galled the thrust plate.  Got my cam back, thrust plate on, and cam gear set on, allowing for the thrust plate to be free between the two.  Went to torque down the cam gear nut, and suddenly I can't turn the engine.  Made a phone call to another 407 enthusiast, we discussed it, I ended up pulling the cam back out, removing the gear I'd bought to replace the old one, put the old one back on, set everything, installed, torqued the cam gear nut back down, and all was well.

It seems there can be fitment issues when swapping cams & cam gears in 361/407's, which can lead to binding on the thrust plate, possibly seizing the cam & wiping out the timing gears.  Judging by the marks on the timing cover & plate, that probably happened to that 1456 earlier in it's life, before I had it.

i passed this along to him today so they can check things out good before they go back together again - thanks for the info!!!

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In fact a that is what happened to the engine on a 856. The camshaft broke so I replaced the cam,cam bearings and lifters.

Used the old cam gear and the engine ran about an 1 hour and sheared the cam gear teeth and bent all the push rods. So I

wondered if I did not adjust the valves in the right order using the D361 info. That is why I asked the original question on this discussion.

What should I look for now? Also how could I tell if the balancer is ok I can not find any reference marks on it?

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Look for the thrust plate between the cam gear & the nose of the camshaft to be chewed up, appear as though it got hot, or is galled up.  The backside of the cam gear will probably be galled up, as well as the front surface of the front camshaft bearing journal.  Like I referred to earlier, as the camshaft gear retaining nut was torqued down, it probably sandwiched that thrust plate too tight, and it seized.

Thankfully, for me, I encountered this while rebuilding an engine out-of-frame, so I found it while rotating the engine over as it was bolted to an engine stand.  After I torqued the cam gear nut, I was suddenly unable to bar the rotating assembly over.  It had rotated freely just before, so I knew it had to be the cam gear nut.  Loosened it up, sure enough, the engine rotated freely again.

As soon as I discovered this, I made a phone call to a friend & fellow 361/407 enthusiast.  He'd encountered this before, and told me all about it.  Best thing we could come up with was to reuse my old cam gear.  My old gear was fine, except the surface on the backside, that goes against the thrust plate, was a little grooved.  I suspect it had an issue like this before.  That galling previously probably increased the tolerance just enough previously that it worked well as I was reassembling the engine.

It seems like a guy runs into this when interchanging camshafts & cam gears.  I don't know if its an issue with aftermarket 361/407 cams more or not.  In my instance, I had my old camshaft reground & refurbished.  I did use a new aftermarket thrust plate.  Finding this during reassembly while the engine is in frame, could maybe be a little harder to find, my only recommendation would be to try barring the engine over @ the flywheel after torquing the cam gear nut down, if it suddenly becomes harder to turn, the cam gear/thrust plate tolerances are still too tight.

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Is a tolerance given by IH for this on these engines to be checked with an indicator?  Can't say I ever replaced any of those parts on that series, probably won't since most are on light duty around here, but if I have issues with my own some day...................

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The service manual does list camshaft end clearance at .002" - .010"  If you look at the backside of the camshaft gear, you'll see a step in the center hole, and if you look at the nose of a bare 361/407 camshaft, you'll see this corresponding step.  That's as far as the gear is supposed to go on, and allow the thrust plate to rotate freely.  I think issues develop when interchanging camshafts, gears, and thrust plates.  Biggest thing is a guy really doesn't know until the cam gear nut is torqued down tight.  In most cases, its very difficult to hold the camshaft while torquing this nut down.  Its easier to do with the cam installed back in the engine, then place a screwdriver between the crank & cam gears to hold everything from rotating, then torque the nut.  If you find its too tight, however, you have to pull the cam back out.

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I looked at the thrust plate and the back side of cam gear and did not see any galling. Thrust

plate did show very slight wear not really measurable. Now I wonder if when the cam broke that 

some teeth on the cam gear were bent or cracked and broke when I was running it. I looked at it

and did not see any damage but may have looked to quickly to see anything or it was not visible

to the eye. Will check end play when I get the cam back in. Crank pulley question  is there any way to check

it and is it a known problem on these engines?

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