brewcrew Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 I found a 706 with the 282 glow plug Diesel engine. Guy thought it has a blown head gasket, but when cranking it over it seems to put pressure back out the intake. Spraying ether will send more back at you than in the engine, and it flat out won’t fire. Will a head gasket cause this? Or is there something more serious going on? One additional thought: this happened right after rebuilding the injection pump. Could the pump be wrong causing everything else? It ran for a while with the pump mounted, but started making bad noises so got parked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
searcyfarms Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 anything is possible when its out of time - there are several here who can tell u how to check the time of the pump and engine to see if something is wrong there, i have read about it a few times here but havent had to do it nor have it in my memory - our 282 that blew head gasket multiple times blew pressure into radiator or would suck it dry and burn the water/antifreeze i have seen out of time engines blow up through the carb/intake when they try to fire and I have had engines with cracked or pistons with holes in them blow out the crankcase/vacuum lines and valve covers from the compression blowing up thru the bottom end. my guess would be timing and yes they will rattle/knock when out of time like they are going to blow/lock up too Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thesd5488 Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 Check timing then head gasket Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MinnesotaFarmall Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 15 minutes ago, Thesd5488 said: Check timing then head gasket Like he said, start cheap, doesn't cost anything to check the timing. Head gasket is going to cost you some money. Mine is blown between two and three and makes it sound like an air compressor without the air filter. Sounds like you should be able to see where it's blown, but can only hear it through the intake without the piping attached. Also, it doesn't use any antifreeze. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
460 Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 Intake valve (s) hanging open? Bent? Soot? Out of adjustment? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J-Mech Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 Timing might be off, but that isn't why it is blowing back through the intake. Unless valve timing is off, which is plausible I suppose. Blown head gasket or valve issues are likely. Test or disassemble to confirm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gearclash Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 17 hours ago, brewcrew said: Guy thought it has a blown head gasket, but when cranking it over it seems to put pressure back out the intake Could have the head gasket blown between cylinders. That makes for some weird symptoms. Edit to add, the engine will run with a blown head gasket between two cylinders so that is not your problem likely. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Injpumped Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 pump is 180* out of time, so it's injecting fuel when valves are partially open in overlap, not closed on the compression stroke. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brewcrew Posted July 18, 2020 Author Share Posted July 18, 2020 16 hours ago, Injpumped said: pump is 180* out of time, so it's injecting fuel when valves are partially open in overlap, not closed on the compression stroke. He said it ran for a few minutes with the injection pump on as it is. Is that possible with it off 180? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordon76 Posted July 18, 2020 Share Posted July 18, 2020 On 7/16/2020 at 10:49 PM, brewcrew said: seems to put pressure back out the intake. head gasket or valve issue, run a compression test, or pressure test cylinders Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Injpumped Posted July 18, 2020 Share Posted July 18, 2020 they may run 180* out of time, but would not have started well, or will not make enough power to pull itself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dale560 Posted July 18, 2020 Share Posted July 18, 2020 1 hour ago, Injpumped said: they may run 180* out of time, but would not have started well, or will not make enough power to pull itself. We have a longtime pump shop 60 miles away. Started by two old Russian German guys from the area. They had a good reputation. I would bet they fixed a few hundred pumps for us. Years ago we took a pump for a 4320 jd down and a set of injectors from a 4010 same trip. Put the 4320 pump on would not run. With ether it would run a bit. Turned pump 180 same thing. Dad and Tractors owner took pump back down . Owner who rebuilt it said give him an hour it will be done. They picked it up owner said nothing wrong with pump but it will run now with a smile. Put it back on it ran. The guys have passed on but one owner son still does pumps there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reichow7120 Posted July 18, 2020 Share Posted July 18, 2020 On 7/17/2020 at 9:47 AM, Gearclash said: Could have the head gasket blown between cylinders. That makes for some weird symptoms. Edit to add, the engine will run with a blown head gasket between two cylinders so that is not your problem likely. Never did that to a Diesel, but blew a head gasket between 3 and 4 on a 460 gas. Right between the 2 cylinders. It ran, not well. But never lost coolant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gearclash Posted July 18, 2020 Share Posted July 18, 2020 4 hours ago, Reichow7120 said: Never did that to a Diesel, but blew a head gasket between 3 and 4 on a 460 gas. Right between the 2 cylinders. It ran, not well. But never lost coolant. My experience was with an 856, D407. Head gasket failed between jugs 5 and 6. Ran halfway decent for 2 cylinders being affected, no coolant lose either. My suspicion is that corrosion weakened the gasket there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MinnesotaFarmall Posted July 19, 2020 Share Posted July 19, 2020 I bet money it's a blown head gasket between the cylinders. Usually they still start and run, but it's hard to get started and lacks power. I took a glow plug and knocked the ends off and brazed an air Chuck fitting on it so you can pressurize the cylinder. Let me know if you want a picture to help explain it. Works very good, and my compression tester uses the same style ends. I'd be willing to say that the bad noises was from too much timing and firing hard, it will make a very pronounced knocking noise. Thus, too much timing is going to take out the head gasket in the weakest, thinnest spot, between the cylinders. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brewcrew Posted July 19, 2020 Author Share Posted July 19, 2020 Ok thanks guys! Having this tractor run is not a deal breaker, but sure would make it easier to handle! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
searcyfarms Posted July 19, 2020 Share Posted July 19, 2020 id sure try the 180 timing thing thats an easy attempt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlieu Posted July 19, 2020 Share Posted July 19, 2020 Pull the intake manifold and valve cover, and watch the valves and make sure that they all are moving while cranking the engine over with the starter. Removing the manifold makes it possible to remove the valve cover much easier. Using a flat prybar through the hole on the right side of the bell housing turn the engine so the valves for cylinder # 6 are in overlap (Exhaust valve closing and intake valve opening). Now line up the pointer with TDC mark on the flywheel (Make sure you are turning the flywheel counterclockwize CCW when viewed from the rear) with the pointer. When cylinder 6 is on overlap, cylinder # 1 is on compression stroke. Now remove the small cover on the side of the injection pump ( the little cover that is held on with 2 small screws) and check if the two timing lines are aligned with each other. With the valve cover removed you can also check the valve lash (0.027). This will tell you if the pump is in time, that all valve are moving and that the valve lash is correct. If ever thing checks out, it time to remove the cylinder head. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MinnesotaFarmall Posted July 19, 2020 Share Posted July 19, 2020 I highly doubt that engine is going to start if the pump is 180 off. Sorry, these old 282 need all the compression they can get to fire. The glow plugs are going to help it some, but I don't see it running 180 off. I am willing to bet the pump was advanced way to much in timing when it was put back on and took out the head gasket. If it runs with the pump 180 off, it has to be a dang good engine, or there was another fuel source, i.e. ether or something of that nature. I've installed one on a 1456 180 off and all it did was smoke like a freight train, and they are way above on the compression ratio vs the 282. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brewcrew Posted March 27, 2022 Author Share Posted March 27, 2022 I’ve got a bit of an update on this engine. The tractor has merely been sitting, and my wife was threatening to sell it for scrap, so I started doing something with it. I just got the head pulled, expecting to see obvious signs of a bad head gasket, but the gasket is intact. Between 4 and 5 is the only spot where the fire rings are dirty enough to get me suspicious. Would this be enough to make it not run? a couple cylinders have grit in them, and I’m not certain if that was before removing the head, or a result of removing the head. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diesel Doctor Posted March 28, 2022 Share Posted March 28, 2022 I always back up until you get to the point where someone screwed with it. Since you bought it that way, you have to go back to what the seller says. That is the diesel pump. I would put two push rods in the #1 lifters and turn it over to #1, top dead center. Watch the push rods go up and down instead of the valves. Remove the timing cover from the pump and make sure it is turning when the crank is turning clockwise. If turning, then back up the engine and watch the pump, does it immediately start turning backwards when the crank is turned counter clockwise? If not, then you have timing gear issues in the front of the engine. I have seen the bearings fail on the idler from the crank to the pump. The one I seen pulled the bolt out of the block when the bearings piled up. I had the pump off this one so I put a crescent wrench on the pump drive shaft. I moved it up and down, it moved a lot and I heard a loud clunk under the front cover. That can put the pump way out of time and it also seized the hydraulic head. You should be able to determine if out of time by the crankshaft on #1 and the pump should be there too. If the pump is in time, and you find no problems with the timing gears, then clean the head/block squeaky clean and put the head back on. It is possible the cam gear and the pump idler may be bad. The above test can either confirm this or tell you, NO. Merely shooting fuel into a cylinder at the wrong time will not make it huff back. That has all the earmarks of the cam being out of time. Perhaps the cam or gears went bad, the owner thought it was the pump. When that didn't work, he gave up and sold it to you. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brewcrew Posted April 3, 2022 Author Share Posted April 3, 2022 On 3/28/2022 at 7:39 AM, Diesel Doctor said: I always back up until you get to the point where someone screwed with it. Since you bought it that way, you have to go back to what the seller says. That is the diesel pump. I would put two push rods in the #1 lifters and turn it over to #1, top dead center. Watch the push rods go up and down instead of the valves. Remove the timing cover from the pump and make sure it is turning when the crank is turning clockwise. If turning, then back up the engine and watch the pump, does it immediately start turning backwards when the crank is turned counter clockwise? If not, then you have timing gear issues in the front of the engine. I have seen the bearings fail on the idler from the crank to the pump. The one I seen pulled the bolt out of the block when the bearings piled up. I had the pump off this one so I put a crescent wrench on the pump drive shaft. I moved it up and down, it moved a lot and I heard a loud clunk under the front cover. That can put the pump way out of time and it also seized the hydraulic head. You should be able to determine if out of time by the crankshaft on #1 and the pump should be there too. If the pump is in time, and you find no problems with the timing gears, then clean the head/block squeaky clean and put the head back on. It is possible the cam gear and the pump idler may be bad. The above test can either confirm this or tell you, NO. Merely shooting fuel into a cylinder at the wrong time will not make it huff back. That has all the earmarks of the cam being out of time. Perhaps the cam or gears went bad, the owner thought it was the pump. When that didn't work, he gave up and sold it to you. Ok, I did as you suggested. With the front piston at tdc, both pushrods activated, the timing mark on the pump is not there. With both valves closed the timing mark is close, but seems to have a couple degrees of wiggle before engaging from clockwise to counter clockwise. Is my pump correct or off? How much wiggle should be acceptable? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Injpumped Posted April 3, 2022 Share Posted April 3, 2022 If both pushrods are tight, then you are on tdc exh stroke, and the pump mark should not be in the window, so sounds like it is correct to me. Now, maybe the pump was put together wrong, or marked in the wrong position. If pump was done by a competent shop, it should be fine, but if "rebuilt" by some fly by night outfit, who knows! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diesel Doctor Posted April 5, 2022 Share Posted April 5, 2022 On 4/3/2022 at 11:03 AM, brewcrew said: Are all your valves working easily? You should be able to push down on each valve, by hand, and when you let up, it should spring right back closed. If the valves are very gummy, that would cause the compression to be shot out of the intake. I have seen valves open and then hang there a bit and slowly close due to very dirty and rusty guides. Make sure your valves are free and work easy. The best way is to remove each spring, look at the valve and seat and make sure the valve works easily in the guide. Have you cleaned up the block yet? Do so around cylinder #4. It appears the top of the sleeve is broken. Clean that one up good to make sure the sleeve sealing surface is still there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brewcrew Posted April 6, 2022 Author Share Posted April 6, 2022 11 hours ago, Diesel Doctor said: Are all your valves working easily? You should be able to push down on each valve, by hand, and when you let up, it should spring right back closed. So with the head fully assembled I should be able to open the valves by hand? I’ll have to check those. I’ll also look closer around the sleeve at cylinder 4. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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