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vtfireman85

Hey Tilla!

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I have been reading about calcium carbonate for supplements for laying birds, around here the biggest quarry supplier for crushed stone is SLC which is a huge quarry   Deals in processed limestone. It is where I got the material I used to level up my duck coop among other things, they of course pick at it for grit or whatever. The article discussed the danger of calcium carbonate with dolomite mixed in for various long term health effects on the birds. 

How would I know of my limestone aggregate has dolomite in it? 

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How do you identify dolomite?
Dolomite is best identified on the basis of its softness, well-developed rhombic cleavage, and its reaction with dilute acid when dolomite is crushed into a powder. It will not react as vigorously with dilute acid as calcite and aragonite, the only other common minerals that effervesce in dilute acid.
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40 minutes ago, nomorejohndeere said:
How do you identify dolomite?
Dolomite is best identified on the basis of its softness, well-developed rhombic cleavage, and its reaction with dilute acid when dolomite is crushed into a powder. It will not react as vigorously with dilute acid as calcite and aragonite, the only other common minerals that effervesce in dilute acid.

Not sure I’m entirely bright enough to know what that all means but perhaps someone there does. 

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dolomitic limestone has magnesium in the calcium 

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26 minutes ago, nelson jr said:

How do you know how much calcium carbonate is in it?

I would presume it is mostly calcium carbonate, I don’t even know if dolomite occurs here. 

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34 minutes ago, nelson jr said:

How do you know how much calcium carbonate is in it?

Lime calcium carbonate  98% +-

Dolomite

calcium carbonate 54% +- 

Magnesium carbanate 45%+-

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3 hours ago, vtfireman85 said:

Not sure I’m entirely bright enough to know what that all means but perhaps someone there does. 

VT, I'm going to be absolutely no help to you, 😥

                       nomore sidetracked me with "well developed cleavage"🧐😉😁

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and I always thought it was my legs............

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You might be able to ask the quarry where you got the stone. Someone there should know just what they're quarrying.

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22 minutes ago, New Englander said:

You might be able to ask the quarry where you got the stone. Someone there should know just what they're quarrying.

X2.   Our local quarries have full time lab techs testing daily to make sure the stone is within state specs.

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3 hours ago, New Englander said:

You might be able to ask the quarry where you got the stone. Someone there should know just what they're quarrying.

What NoMoJD said about the fizz test is a good indicator.  I put a drop of 10% HCL on the stone.  If it fizzes it's limestone.  If it doesn't I make a knife scratch and drop again.  If that fizzes it's a dolmitic carbonate.  If that doesn't fizz it's one of about 300+ other rock types.

New Englander's on the right track too.  The quarry should know the formation name they're working in.  A cursory review of VT's strat column shows a lot of the carbonate units are dolmitic which tells me there's good chance you'd find a substantial amount of Mg++ present in most supplies.

https://mrdata.usgs.gov/geology/state/fips-unit.php?state=VT

Not surprising there'd be a lot of Mag in your area.  The Taconian, Acadian, and Alleghanian orogenies tortured the east coast and the placement of igneous plutons and up-thrusted metamorphics supplied a lot of available Mg++ which then produced primary dolomite or diagenetically altered existing Ca++ carbonates into Ca++/Mg++ carbonates.

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11 hours ago, 806 man said:

Lime calcium carbonate  98% +-

Dolomite

calcium carbonate 54% +- 

Magnesium carbanate 45%+-

Not trying to nitpick but a complete solid solution series exists between "limestone" and "dolomite".  The end member minerals are calcium carbonate (CaCO3) and Magnesite (MgCO3).  Each cation can substitute for the other in any percentage - Cax%Mgy%(CO3).

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7 minutes ago, Atilathehun99 said:

Not trying to nitpick but a complete solid solution series exists between "limestone" and "dolomite".  The end member minerals are calcium carbonate (CaCO3) and Magnesite (MgCO3).  Each cation can substitute for the other in any percentage - Cax%Mgy%(CO3).

That is why I added  + - . Nether is exact.

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2 hours ago, Atilathehun99 said:

What NoMoJD said about the fizz test is a good indicator.  I put a drop of 10% HCL on the stone.  If it fizzes it's limestone.  If it doesn't I make a knife scratch and drop again.  If that fizzes it's a dolmitic carbonate.  If that doesn't fizz it's one of about 300+ other rock types.

New Englander's on the right track too.  The quarry should know the formation name they're working in.  A cursory review of VT's strat column shows a lot of the carbonate units are dolmitic which tells me there's good chance you'd find a substantial amount of Mg++ present in most supplies.

https://mrdata.usgs.gov/geology/state/fips-unit.php?state=VT

Not surprising there'd be a lot of Mag in your area.  The Taconian, Acadian, and Alleghanian orogenies tortured the east coast and the placement of igneous plutons and up-thrusted metamorphics supplied a lot of available Mg++ which then produced primary dolomite or diagenetically altered existing Ca++ carbonates into Ca++/Mg++ carbonates.

I may have to watch Bill Nye before I am ready to tackle that. This runs in what I believe to be the same vein that Danby Imperial Marble is quarried from. They are about 5 miles apart, this however is a surface mine and the marble quarry is underground. I asked at the office and was told that he “didn’t think they had any dolomite, but that they did up in Florence “ not the scientific answer I was hoping for. I asked a friend who works in the marble quarry he felt all marble was laced with dolomite. Not sure where to get 10%hcl but I’d give testing it a try if I can figure that out. 

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1 hour ago, vtfireman85 said:

I may have to watch Bill Nye before I am ready to tackle that. This runs in what I believe to be the same vein that Danby Imperial Marble is quarried from. They are about 5 miles apart, this however is a surface mine and the marble quarry is underground. I asked at the office and was told that he “didn’t think they had any dolomite, but that they did up in Florence “ not the scientific answer I was hoping for. I asked a friend who works in the marble quarry he felt all marble was laced with dolomite. Not sure where to get 10%hcl but I’d give testing it a try if I can figure that out. 

Hmmm.....

Marbles are carbonates (limestones or dolomites) that have been metamorphosed.  Not impossible but unusual for un-meta carbonates located close to metas (marbles).  Also would be odd to quarry metas and sell for Ag purposes.  Even though they're the same chem composition I would think the much harder marble wouldn't break down nearly as easily as limestone/dolomite.

Re: the HCL go to your hardware or big box and buy it (muriatic acid).  That stuff's usually 15% - 30%.  The 10% use I referenced is general.  The point is you want it relatively weak.  Actually you can get similar results w/ vinegar but the reactions would take longer.

If a person really wanted to know and didn't mind being a PITA they could ask for the main office phone number.  Someone should know the formal name of the unit they're mining.

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We are mining right on top of are dolomite seam , at least That’s what we call it.   Dolo 1, we are mining Hical we need low mag. 

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So to get off track 

what is oolite?    Is it in the dolomite family 

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47 minutes ago, dannyredfan said:

So to get off track 

what is oolite?    Is it in the dolomite family 

Oolites or "oolitic" is a textural and not compositional term.  Oolities are very small calcium carbonate near spheres.  They're kinda the equivalent of pearls as they're formed by concentric layers of calc carb deposited around a nucleating particle.  Formed in near shore environments where wave action of calc carb rich water promotes their formation.  They're among the cleanest limestones you'll ever run across.

The oolitic limestones quarried from Bloomington IN south to around Bedford are iconic.  If you're in mid-America and you see limestone window sills and lintels you can pretty much bet they came from south-central IN.  Indiana Limestone in the town of Oolitic on 37 used to let you rummage through their scrap pile.  At least if you told the office you were a geologist interested in some specimens.....LOL.

Can't say I know for sure but I don't know what would prevent an oolitic limestone from being diagenetically altered to becoming dolomitic?

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4 hours ago, Atilathehun99 said:

Hmmm.....

Marbles are carbonates (limestones or dolomites) that have been metamorphosed.  Not impossible but unusual for un-meta carbonates located close to metas (marbles).  Also would be odd to quarry metas and sell for Ag purposes.  Even though they're the same chem composition I would think the much harder marble wouldn't break down nearly as easily as limestone/dolomite.

Re: the HCL go to your hardware or big box and buy it (muriatic acid).  That stuff's usually 15% - 30%.  The 10% use I referenced is general.  The point is you want it relatively weak.  Actually you can get similar results w/ vinegar but the reactions would take longer.

If a person really wanted to know and didn't mind being a PITA they could ask for the main office phone number.  Someone should know the formal name of the unit they're mining.

So if I were to go down and get some samples that I dumped vinegar on, how long should I be waiting for results? Seconds?minutes? Hours? 

Vinegar I have . 

I do not mind being a PITA, and I’ll try but I find you start asking these questions and people get guarded.. regardless of how innocent your intentions. 

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39 minutes ago, vtfireman85 said:

So if I were to go down and get some samples that I dumped vinegar on, how long should I be waiting for results? Seconds?minutes? Hours? 

Vinegar I have .   Variable.  Depends on the temp.  Guessin I'd say < 1 min if it's limestone; > 2 if it's dolomite.  Like I said, just wild azz guesses.  Dilute HCL is more responsive and easier to predict.  Come on, spring for some real HCL.  Handy to have on hand.  Great rust buster.

I do not mind being a PITA, and I’ll try but I find you start asking these questions and people get guarded.. regardless of how innocent your intentions.  I understand.  My personal philosophy in such situations is "They can't say anything worse than NO and I've heard and lived w/ that before."

UPDATE:  Forget the vinegar.  This got me thinking and I went and wetted a piece of Bedford oolitic w/ white vinegar, 5% acetic acid.  Nothing immediately.  Behaves like I used HCL on dolomite......it did slightly effervesce to a knife scratch.  I got some Kona dolomite around here somewhere but given the response from the Bedford it would prob take forever to see a reaction even of a knife scrape.

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10 minutes ago, Atilathehun99 said:

UPDATE:  Forget the vinegar.  This got me thinking and I went and wetted a piece of Bedford oolitic w/ white vinegar, 5% acetic acid.  Nothing immediately.  Behaves like I used HCL on dolomite......it did slightly effervesce to a knife scratch.  I got some Kona dolomite around here somewhere but given the response from the Bedford it would prob take forever to see a reaction even of a knife scrape.

I certainly will get some muriatic acid, I just didn’t have opportunity to today 

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5 minutes ago, Atilathehun99 said:

Great rust buster

It sure is!  I salvaged a sunken boat and the fiberglass deck was heavily stained from some steel that was lying on it when it went down. Muriatic acid smoked it right out. It's cheap and probably available at HD or, if not, any place that caters to masons (not the Free Masons, unless, of course, they happen to be a mason).

Tough stuff, wear a mask and gloves. I've used it for other rust stains and decided to try it on the boat deck. Worked like magic.

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