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pt756

fire engine purchase?

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hello, I am on our local fire board,  volunteers would like to purchase a new engine, newest one Is  20 years old, so they go to pierce in wis. get a price about 500k, so board chairman isn't really against the purchase but was telling all the horror stories about new trucks and def, claims many truckers buy as much warranty as they can then get a different truck after about 500k mile when warranty is off, claims these def fire engines will be nothing but trouble, instead he wants to take an engine out to a place in las vegas that does complete rebuilds, claims the place does rebuilds for the military, on fire engines you can spend 100k up to 300k , depending on what it all needs, anybody ever hear of a place like that out there? I think the volunteers would rather have a new one, did receive an email that cummins has an engine to address all the idle time. thanks

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I wouldn't want any emissions on an emergency vehicle. Stupid that they aren't exempt

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I agree with Bitty. Our local rescue squad want to buy a new extraction truck. The one they are replacing is a 2005 with a little more than 30,000 miles on it. A mechanic friend who is on the squad is against it because he knows that a new vehicle with all the emissions will be more trouble than the one they already have that has no issues.

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We bought our new truck just in time (not by accident) to avoid all the emissions, it’s a 15’, I think. Dorset just bought a new one loaded up with emissions, I would be nervous. They love KME, our last couple trucks have been E-one and I don’t see us going away from them. Only issue we have had in 20 years is the siren activating when you let the mic on repeater. I sure hope they make an exception soon or we are going to be looking at 10 year trucks with no resale value, volunteer departments can’t afford that kind of nonsense. 

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You can refurbish the old truck but has to be brought up to current NFPA 1901 standards. Usually it will cost almost as much as a new one by the time your done. We have several DEF apparatus and there are no more problems with them than any other but they are also on the road alot, like 15-20 runs a day so they get run hard and short city runs.Only emission problems we have had are with smaller F-550 size trucks which have been a nightmare but they do not get run as much. Have lots of experience specing apparatus and I actually sold Pierce trucks 25-30 years ago part time so feel free to message me if I can help you

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1 minute ago, ChrisNY said:

You can refurbish the old truck but has to be brought up to current NFPA 1901 standards. Usually it will cost almost as much as a new one by the time your done. We have several DEF apparatus and there are no more problems with them than any other but they are also on the road alot, like 15-20 runs a day so they get run hard and short city runs.Only emission problems we have had are with smaller F-550 size trucks which have been a nightmare but they do not get run as much. Have lots of experience specing apparatus and I actually sold Pierce trucks 25-30 years ago part time so feel free to message me if I can help you

This is true, they tend to be run hard and hot, though ours never see anything like that much use. 75 calls a year or so. But we are often climbing a mountain to and from calls. I’ll be interested to learn what  will happen with this emissions stuff.

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As a EVT certified tech that works for a fleet service company that specializes in emergency vehicles, I totally agree that these units should be exempt from the emission regulations. But unfortunately that will never happen. Problem with getting these 20 year old trucks refurbished is now everything must meet current NFPA standards. And then are they replacing all the old pipes that are not stainless and corroded inside? Most likely not. Then there is the corrosion and stress issues in the body and cabs. We really have seen very few emission issues with the big trucks. Ambulances, now that’s a whole different issue. As long as guys use clean def and handle things properly the OEM manufacturers have come a long way with these systems. One big thing is to use the high idle systems when on scene, or anytime the truck is sitting for any period of time. 

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we have a 2018  and the check engine light came on at 1400 miles took it to the dealer the light came on now again at 1700 miles going to have to take it in again I have a hard time to get guys to idle up the engine or if its just going to sit there to shut it off  I used to think refurbishing was practical but you run up against the fact the refurb rig will still be full of older brand specific parts you may not be able to  get we have a beautiful 1994  22000 mile International chassis Central apparatus pumper for second out. It has been real reliable but now little things here and there  you have to more searching for or update.

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I am going to say that 8 out of 10 trucks broke down on the side of the road are emission related issues. I sure wouldn’t want to have a pumper sitting there idling and it does a regen about the time the wind comes up. 
 

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New truck, old truck, they all have issues. Technology is the direction everything is going. It is more important now than ever to have a good proactive maintenance program. Unfortunately a lot of what I see is the older guys don’t want to accept the new. A lot of departments think a oil change once a year is a maintenance program. Can’t tell you how many twenty five year old belts I’ve changed on trucks, same trucks with air dryers that have never been serviced. “But it’s only got 15,000 miles on it”... 

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3 hours ago, pt756 said:

hello, I am on our local fire board,  volunteers would like to purchase a new engine, newest one Is  20 years old, so they go to pierce in wis. get a price about 500k, so board chairman isn't really against the purchase but was telling all the horror stories about new trucks and def, claims many truckers buy as much warranty as they can then get a different truck after about 500k mile when warranty is off, claims these def fire engines will be nothing but trouble, instead he wants to take an engine out to a place in las vegas that does complete rebuilds, claims the place does rebuilds for the military, on fire engines you can spend 100k up to 300k , depending on what it all needs, anybody ever hear of a place like that out there? I think the volunteers would rather have a new one, did receive an email that cummins has an engine to address all the idle time. thanks

DID YOU CHECK OUT SEAGRAVE? WISCONSIN BUILT..

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8 hours ago, R190 said:

we have a 2018  and the check engine light came on at 1400 miles took it to the dealer the light came on now again at 1700 miles going to have to take it in again I have a hard time to get guys to idle up the engine or if its just going to sit there to shut it off  I used to think refurbishing was practical but you run up against the fact the refurb rig will still be full of older brand specific parts you may not be able to  get we have a beautiful 1994  22000 mile International chassis Central apparatus pumper for second out. It has been real reliable but now little things here and there  you have to more searching for or update.

first thing I do after I hit the air brakes is to bump up the high idle, my truck is a 94 so it is more for battery charging than anything else, but still necessary practice. so many guys are apt to get hot headed and neglect to think about what they are doing in the moment. we have a great chief who's parting words are "go slow" he doesn't mean stop for coffee but he means keep your head on, drive like a rational human being and get everyone there safe. ive seen guys (from a neighboring department) jump out without setting the air brakes on a scene, you want to talk about a hazard? no one got hurt and the equipment didn't either but it could have been bad. our own guys seem to have trouble remembering to put the pump in gear when its cold out, -10 on an accident scene, those trucks can sit there for several hours running and it will freeze up a pump without circulating. the carnage is unreal. 

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Smeal in Northern Nebraska makes fire trucks to spec. Have been for years . 

 

Back in the 80’s a fire truck in Lincoln was hit by a train and literally cut the truck in half. 

Smeal rebuilt that truck and it is still in service today. 

 

Regarding the fear of new Diesel engines and def,  I have yet to figure out what all the fuss is about. 

My diesel pickup ———- never a problem

My track loader—————never a problem 

Combine——never a problem 

Three tracters————never a problem 

Brother in law ownes an excavating company , virtually everything he owns , dozers, backhoes, graders, tractors, pickups, semi’s, dump trucks, all new enough  to need the use of def ———-

you guessed it ——no problems.   None!!!! 

 

Get over it ,  it’s here to stay .

 

if your fire department is on the fence about s piece Of equipment to purchase and DEF is a deciding factor then you are reading too much fear mongering on the Internet

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I am one that is against the newer emissions and believe older technology is more reliable. In my experience with def when it’s deleted it’s dependable and more power is gained. Dad sold his 2000 w900 cause of the miles it was getting and he was scared of having to put to much money in it and picked up a 2012 Volvo. In the years he’s had the Volvo he’s lost more loads and paid bigger shop bills than he ever has with the w900 in the 10 years he owned it but now he has nothing of value to trade cause it’s a Volvo. It’s hard for him to swallow when his truck is in the shop due to def and I see his old one running down the road. 
 My department went through the same discussions when we were looking for a new pumper Several years ago. We ended up with an 01 Kenworth that has been very reliable for us but we have several members that are mechanics and we keep up on it. If something is spotted it gets fixed before it becomes an issue. Any parts we can’t find locally we get through the original apparatus manufacturer. They have serial number on file and that makes it easy for us.
  our newest truck is probably an 08 6x6 Freightliner we got from Oklahoma forestry department. It originally came from the U.S. military with very little miles. It was donated to us and as long as we had it built for our purpose within a certain time we get to keep it so all we paid was I think 120k to build into a tanker. It also can fight fires with corner nozzles and a remote nozzle on the front bumper so as long as getting stuck isn’t an issue it can do more than haul water. We have a couple places that build our grass rigs and tankers to whatever specs we want or can get depending on how the truck is built and we gotta go through the county and get bids from them. 

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hey thanks for all the replies, district did replace ambulance last year, chair was adamant that it be a gas motor, or would not vote for it, well it is a gas motor, I believe its a ford chassis.

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48 minutes ago, lorenzo said:

Smeal in Northern Nebraska makes fire trucks to spec. Have been for years . 

 

Back in the 80’s a fire truck in Lincoln was hit by a train and literally cut the truck in half. 

Smeal rebuilt that truck and it is still in service today. 

 

Regarding the fear of new Diesel engines and def,  I have yet to figure out what all the fuss is about. 

My diesel pickup ———- never a problem

My track loader—————never a problem 

Combine——never a problem 

Three tracters————never a problem 

Brother in law ownes an excavating company , virtually everything he owns , dozers, backhoes, graders, tractors, pickups, semi’s, dump trucks, all new enough  to need the use of def ———-

you guessed it ——no problems.   None!!!! 

 

Get over it ,  it’s here to stay .

 

if your fire department is on the fence about s piece Of equipment to purchase and DEF is a deciding factor then you are reading too much fear mongering on the Internet

Keep me posted as to how well you like the def if you let them idle for hours at a time. Or how well you like it in wheat stubble. Guess if you traded equipment every few years it wouldn’t be an issue maybe, but when Cat couldn’t sell any dozers a year ago because they had robbed all the emissions crap off of the ones sitting at their factory, that tells me that there is an issue with it. 

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1 hour ago, Lazy WP said:

Keep me posted as to how well you like the def if you let them idle for hours at a time. Or how well you like it in wheat stubble. Guess if you traded equipment every few years it wouldn’t be an issue maybe, but when Cat couldn’t sell any dozers a year ago because they had robbed all the emissions crap off of the ones sitting at their factory, that tells me that there is an issue with it. 

It’s just my opinion based on actual usage. 

We dont leave equipment idle for hours at a time so that’s one reason it’s not an issue for us, 

 I doubt the manufactures put much R&D into devloping an engine for a small percentage of the market that just lets it sit idle for extended periods. 

Your expeeience may differ and that’s perfectly fine . 

The new emissions tec and DEF is here to stay . 

 

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3 hours ago, lorenzo said:

Smeal in Northern Nebraska makes fire trucks to spec. Have been for years . 

 

Back in the 80’s a fire truck in Lincoln was hit by a train and literally cut the truck in half. 

Smeal rebuilt that truck and it is still in service today. 

 

Regarding the fear of new Diesel engines and def,  I have yet to figure out what all the fuss is about. 

My diesel pickup ———- never a problem

My track loader—————never a problem 

Combine——never a problem 

Three tracters————never a problem 

Brother in law ownes an excavating company , virtually everything he owns , dozers, backhoes, graders, tractors, pickups, semi’s, dump trucks, all new enough  to need the use of def ———-

you guessed it ——no problems.   None!!!! 

 

Get over it ,  it’s here to stay .

 

if your fire department is on the fence about s piece Of equipment to purchase and DEF is a deciding factor then you are reading too much fear mongering on the Internet

How cold does it get down there? DEF doesn't seem to be going away, but a lot of the chore tractors up here have been a nightmare unless they're in a heated shop. My only worry is we get a call when its -40 and the system freezes up while it's idling

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Here to stay, but it's junk and very pricey to fix. Anything new will be DEF unless you go gas.. which larger gas engines are coming back around. However, if budget is a consideration, refurbing an older unit will leave you ahead in the end. We have a very limited budget for our VFD and maintaining older equipment is FAR more cost effective and reliability is excellent. Rebuilding a DEF system that's half the cost of the whole engine is a tough pill to swallow.

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I believe that emergency vehicles can be programmed not to derate if it has an emissions issue so that you won't be stuck in a bad situation. All the bells and lights will still go off but the truck will still function. You'll still have to fix it, but not in the middle of a fire scene. Run them hard and don't leave them idling a lot and they don't seem to have a lot of issues. 

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3 hours ago, IH766 said:

How cold does it get down there? DEF doesn't seem to be going away, but a lot of the chore tractors up here have been a nightmare unless they're in a heated shop. My only worry is we get a call when its -40 and the system freezes up while it's idling

I was going to say the same thing, I think climate makes a huge difference. We have a 2011 freigntliner at work that was the primary truck for delivering loads of pallets. Nine months out of the year it runs ok, maybe a glitch here and there. The other three when the temperature drops it is in the shop every two weeks, warms back up, fine again. It is now the secondary truck behind  a 1989 Volvo that took its spot. 3406B cat and gets better mileage

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