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Another 5240 hyd problem


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my ever reliable 5240 is not doing great, hoping someone here can lend a hand. Remotes are slow, only gettng about 200-300psi with a guage in one. 3pth is slow, clutch cuts out when steering wheel is turned even the slightest, but then comes back once the steering motion has stopped. and all these problems seem to go away when it is reved up past 13-1400rpm. had a guy (who i thought new these tractors) out to look at it who said we needed a new pump, so put that in yesterday (6000$ later) and still no change. hoping someone can offer some help, i will get some guages and fittings next week and do some of the tests described in the service manual.

 

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Got fittings ordered to test standby, remote and steering pressure. In the mean time, pulled the starter off as I had thought the gasket was bad. Turns out it was fine, but my starter motor is full of hyd oil?? Is there supposed to be hydraulic oil inside around the flywheel?

I'm thinking now that this might be a leak in my main clutch, any way to test that pressure? Or have I been at this too long now and starting to see ghosts

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Here is a schematic of the legacy small frame Maxxum transmission. The main clutches are items 8R and 8F.  They won’t be putting oil in the flywheel housing.  I don’t know enough about the 5000 series to speculate why there is oil there, CIHTECH and others may know what’s going on. 

B7571671-D6A0-4F16-AB02-CBB0C5470090.jpeg

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Yes it's a wet housing. Starter is sealed type. Sounds like you need to get it resealed. Complete drive line on that series runs in oil.

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yes dad had the starter apart this morning, seal in it was completely shot. Gotta love aftermarket, this starter was only 1.5 years old. Is there anything else i can look at while i'm waiting for the fittings to do the pressure tests? is there any other tests i should look at doing?

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did that new pump com with a compensator? I have been looking for a different compensator for quite a while.

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1 hour ago, R190 said:

did that new pump com with a compensator? I have been looking for a different compensator for quite a while.

Got multiple ones laying upstairs, early or late style?

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Ok, found it. Now to try and find a fitting that small, none of my usual places had one.

Is there a proceedure for repriming after a main pump was changed? Havent moved it at all since we put the new pump on a week ago, but i jumped in it today to park it back inside to start doing these tests and it wouldnt move. After a while forward started to work but no reverse. drove it around in forward for a while and then reverse started to work. thoughts anyone?

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Everything should self prime. Starting to think problem is in compensator. Did you disassemble the pump? If so was it bad? I think you should give the guy who spent your 6k an opportunity the do a bit of checking / testing. 

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no we didnt take it apart, but seeing as with the new pump on its still doing the same thing, im assuming that the original pump was still good. dad now wants to put the old one back on and return the new one to case but i cant see them taking it back now.

I talked to the guy who was out a couple of days ago, explained it was still the same after putting the new pump it, to which he replied 'well its got to be your charge pump then. its going to have to be split.' i asked if he could come and test it first rather than just take another shot in the dark and he said he had never done that before and wasnt sure there was a way to even do it. i just left it at that. Hard to believe that these guys all used to work for case ih about 25yrs ago before setting off on their own, and none of them have ever pressure tested a charge pump before.

my fittings should be here to do the tests myself next week. seems pretty straight forward. not nearly as big a job as the pto clutch rebuild we did on this tractor 2 years ago!

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ok, got my fittings today and hooked it all up, charge press at the filter and the one under the big line out the back. this is what i found:

At idle, charge press was 40psi. standby was about 525, #1 remote held open, no change from standby. steering locked fully one way, charge press dropped to 20psi, standby dropped to 500psi +/-

 

At 1200 rpm, charge was 50psi, standby went to 600 then slowly dropped back to 525psi. standby did not change when remote was held open or when steering was locked. if remote was left open at idle then increase to 1200rpm, standby would increase to 2800. If reved higher than 1200 it would go to 3000psi+.

 

At 2000rpm, charge was 50psi, 600psi standby. The remote open initially did not have an effect BUT if the lever was moved back and forth repeatedly it would go to 2800psi. I couldnt reproduce this at other rpms. when steering was locked, charge was 40psi, and standby would slowly go to 2500psi over about 4 seconds. after it went back to idling after this, charge press dropped to 20psi.

Does all this give anyone an idea as to what is going on here?

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1 hour ago, dialedin said:

The remote open initially did not have an effect BUT if the lever was moved back and forth repeatedly it would go to 2800psi

This line almost sounds like a bad signal check........

On top of compensator valve is (2) pressure limiters, inner one is for hitch & remote circuit, and should be 2800 psi when dead headed. Outer one is steering, it should be 300 psi less than hitch & remote. 

Test 16 in service manual is the compensator pressure test / setting procedure. This test requires a flow tester and a set of matched 5000 psi gauges, and modifying an allen wrench for adjustment purposes. Need to shorten short side of allen to about 3/8 - 1/2 to get between adjusting screw and transmission case. The end result of this test is that pump pressure needs to be 1300 psi while signal pressure is 1000 psi.

I would strongly recommend backing your pressure limiters down a bit (back adjusting screw out) then performing the compensator test / adjustment. Next bring your hitch & remote circuit up to 2800 then steering to 2500. 

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Ok. I will have to find myself a flow tester someplace to do this, and read up on the procedure in the service manual. Is this something that will suddenly go wonky and cause my problems? This wasnt a gradual problem that got worse over time, it was all of a sudden after i rocked a big wagon back and forth a few times to get it out of a field last fall.

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Anyone know where to get a relatively cheap hyd flow meter? I don't have 4k to spend on one of these fancy ones. I have everything else ready to start the testing but no flow meter...

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any hy capacity dealers in your area they have one that seems reasonble priced. have never seen theres or used one. i have a old IH setup but would think theres would work fine. forget this idea just checked part availability says out of stock but was $1000

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Kinda of a poor picture but got mine from Northern Hydraulics, add a high pressure gate valve after flow meter and you can "load" a pump. I put about a 3 ft hose off valve to return back into remote or zero pressure return. 

20200610163512.jpg

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  • 1 month later...

So, i finally got myself a flow meter! Very similar to yours @CIHTECH I have not touched or even ran the tractor since the last time i did any testing. Fired it up today, heated up the oil for 45mins, which i did not do the last time, and got to it. I did a few tests in the manual, charge is within limits 24psi @900 rpm, 50psi @2200. High press standby is still about 520psi at 900. But now, i cant get any pressure out of the remotes, at all. My flow meter saws that there is about 2-3gpm going out but i cannot builld any kind of pressure, either at the flow meter or on the pump bottom test port. If i lock the steering one way or another, it will build up to about to about 2500 psi, but it takes about 10 seconds and then it drops back down again. any more thoughts or recommendations?

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Back both of your pressure limiters down then bring them back up. Inner one is remotes and outer one is steering. Do the one for remotes first. 

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I went out to do pressure resets this morning, and now the starter is not shutting off after key release (did somechecking, problem is in the starter. fml. new one coming). Press resets wil have to wait i guess. So i went and did some reading through the service manual, specifically the troubleshooting flow charts, most of the stuff i'm now having problems with seems to, according to the charts, come down to three things: blocked bleed orifice, blocked steering orifice, flow compensator needs adjustment. would it be worth checking these while i wait for a starter? If yes, where can i find them? service manual is not exactly clear in their descriptions.

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