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706 w/ a 282 Timing gear train failure


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I just put a rebuilt injector pump on my 706 two days ago and plowed about 15 acres with it today for a new hay seeding.  As I idled down on the headlands I could hear a rattle/knocking noise coming from the pump area.  Along with the sporadic noise was an erratic surging idle, so I thought “this new pump is coming apart inside”.  I almost made it home when it finally quit running; complete with a loud bang, flames out the exhaust, and white smoke, we coasted to the side of the road.  Once home I did some more investigation by removing the timing plate and could see the pump wasn’t turning with the engine. Being fired up myself, I was determined to get the pump back to the pump shop first thing in the morning, but once I had it in my hand, I knew they were off the hook.  My heart sank not seeing the sheered off pump drive shaft and grabbing it I could shake it and rotate it half a turn before coming in contact with any teeth.

I have never heard of any stories that they have any common problems with the timing gears.  Any ideas on what failed?  A bushing on the pump shaft?  Bushing on the idler gear?  Is there a grenade pin on these engines like a Cummins?  This is a big job to pull the front of the engine off, so I’m hoping for some insight so I can keep this from happening again.

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Is there a bearing the supports the injector pump drive gear?  The 361/407 has the aluminum spacer with bearings in it, but the parts manual for the 282 doesn't show anything at all.  Is the bushing in the pump what carries and centers the pump drive gear? 

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That sucks, probably should have shut it down to investigate noise as you deffinently caused more damage.  More familiar with gassers as there is a idler that drives a governor where in your case the injector pump.  My guess is something happened with that idler, it rides on a babbitt bearing that is pressure lubed.  A guess is the 1/2" idler hub bolt backed off or broke for some odd reason?  This is very odd.

Be interesting to see some pictures when you get it apart.

Scott

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Also take a close look at the harmonic balancer rubber it could be the culprit.

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This is the same engine when I installed it 5 years ago.   It's a 301 out of a combine and I put the tractor front timing cover on.  All the gears and drives are from the 301 with 18xx hours on it.  What supports the pump drive gear?  I know the idler gear has a babbit bearing in it, but the gear the pump shaft bolts on?   Is there a bushing or bearing?   I took a 5 sec video of me turning and flopping the shaft around with the pump off, but I can't post any videos for some reason. 🤔

IMG_9442.JPG

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Sorry about your plight.
 

Most of the time videos are too large to post without linking to YouTube. I did try making a gif out of a short video today with a free app and was able to post that. I know it doesn’t fix your problem but might get your video up easier. 

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The pump gear is supported by the brass pilot tube in the pump.

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7 hours ago, Cooter said:

This is the same engine when I installed it 5 years ago.   It's a 301 out of a combine and I put the tractor front timing cover on.  All the gears and drives are from the 301 with 18xx hours on it.  What supports the pump drive gear?  I know the idler gear has a babbit bearing in it, but the gear the pump shaft bolts on?   Is there a bushing or bearing?   I took a 5 sec video of me turning and flopping the shaft around with the pump off, but I can't post any videos for some reason. 🤔

IMG_9442.JPG

Wheres the little spring and pin that goes in the end of the shaft? 

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The bolt came out of you idler gear I would guess. Had this happen on dads 806 once but they ran timpken bearings I believe. Same symptom as you but I was able to make it 1/4 mile home

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Call me crazy but the engagement of the idler to the crank gear looks shallow to me. Could have contributed to your problem?

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4 hours ago, Cdfarabaugh said:

Wheres the little spring and pin that goes in the end of the shaft? 

The same place as the gasket and front timing cover, sitting on the bench.  It's inside the engine now.

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4 hours ago, Injpumped said:

The pump gear is supported by the brass pilot tube in the pump.

I haven't had any problems for the last 600 hours.  But I put a new injector pump on Saturday afternoon and haven't put 10 hours on it yet when it failed, so I wonder if there is anything wrong with the bushing in the new pump.......

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D301 injection pump gear out of a low houred engine. This is the one I installed in my 656 from a fellow forum member. This is what I found when I went to swap the front cover. No way to know it was like that or how it even happened. I replaced it and went on with life. So yes gear failure is possible. 

20170116_170541_IMG_0963.JPG

20170121_074609_IMG_0975.JPG

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I had a similar issue when a mechanic at a dealership and this is how it went.

Farmer brought in his Roosa Master, locked up off a 706D. He wanted it fixed so I put in a new hydraulic head and driveshaft and had him on his way in a short time. I asked him if he wanted me to install it and he said he knew very well how to do it.

Farmer installed and that one locked up in about 30 seconds. Therefore, I was an idiot so he took it to a pump shop for a rebuild.

Farmer installed and that one also lasted about 30 seconds.

He came back to the dealer and ordered a brand new Roosa Master as no one, according to him, knew how to work on pumps.

I stopped his rant for a few minutes and asked him to bring it in. That enraged him until he said, WHY? I said because if that new pump locks up, the dealer is then on the hook and has to replace it. If he puts it on, and it locks up, he pays. That must have struck a chord.

The next morning the tractor was in the shop. I put on the new pump and was timing it. I went past the mark so I backed it up. The pump continued to turn the same way. ALL STOP! The pump came off and I slid a crescent wrench on the pump shaft and moved it about 2 inches up and down. There was a loud clunk in the front cover when that happened.

The front cover came off and there was the idler, between the crank and pump with the Timken tapered bearings trashed and it had pulled the bolt and threads out of the block. I replaced the bearings and was trying to come up with a way to fix the block. (Before I knew about Heli-Coil.)  The owner showed up, was told what happened. He grabbed the flat plate that was against the block and the idler and disappeared. He came back an hour later with the idler center welded to the front engine plate. I told him the pump had to run with less than five thousands deflection and he was on his own if the pump seized. He said to put it together.

To this day, if still running, this is the way it was fixed. I certainly hope no one ever pulls that engine apart to see how this was cobbled together.

I would guess your hydraulic head on the pump is locked up and the drive shaft is twisted off. You can pull the pump and if the shaft is broken, go to work and pull the front end off and the front cover. Hope you have better luck with this than I did?

 

 

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23 minutes ago, Diesel Doctor said:

I had a similar issue when a mechanic at a dealership and this is how it went.

Farmer brought in his Roosa Master, locked up off a 706D. He wanted it fixed so I put in a new hydraulic head and driveshaft and had him on his way in a short time. I asked him if he wanted me to install it and he said he knew very well how to do it.

Farmer installed and that one locked up in about 30 seconds. Therefore, I was an idiot so he took it to a pump shop for a rebuild.

Farmer installed and that one also lasted about 30 seconds.

He came back to the dealer and ordered a brand new Roosa Master as no one, according to him, knew how to work on pumps.

I stopped his rant for a few minutes and asked him to bring it in. That enraged him until he said, WHY? I said because if that new pump locks up, the dealer is then on the hook and has to replace it. If he puts it on, and it locks up, he pays. That must have struck a chord.

The next morning the tractor was in the shop. I put on the new pump and was timing it. I went past the mark so I backed it up. The pump continued to turn the same way. ALL STOP! The pump came off and I slid a crescent wrench on the pump shaft and moved it about 2 inches up and down. There was a loud clunk in the front cover when that happened.

The front cover came off and there was the idler, between the crank and pump with the Timken tapered bearings trashed and it had pulled the bolt and threads out of the block. I replaced the bearings and was trying to come up with a way to fix the block. (Before I knew about Heli-Coil.)  The owner showed up, was told what happened. He grabbed the flat plate that was against the block and the idler and disappeared. He came back an hour later with the idler center welded to the front engine plate. I told him the pump had to run with less than five thousands deflection and he was on his own if the pump seized. He said to put it together.

To this day, if still running, this is the way it was fixed. I certainly hope no one ever pulls that engine apart to see how this was cobbled together.

I would guess your hydraulic head on the pump is locked up and the drive shaft is twisted off. You can pull the pump and if the shaft is broken, go to work and pull the front end off and the front cover. Hope you have better luck with this than I did?

 

 

Surprisingly on dads 806 we were able to screw bolt back in and everything was good. It had not been apart either for 15 years before. Last work on it dealer changed the crankshaft 

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4358B80B-C79E-4CDD-B43A-82933DDAA076.gif

 

I was expecting a bushing or bearing that had gone bad, I didn't realize that the pump was the carrier for the gear in this application.  Regardless if this looks normal with the pump off for a 282, there are definitely some teeth missing......

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On 5/7/2020 at 9:39 AM, Diesel Doctor said:

I had a similar issue when a mechanic at a dealership and this is how it went.

Farmer brought in his Roosa Master, locked up off a 706D. He wanted it fixed so I put in a new hydraulic head and driveshaft and had him on his way in a short time. I asked him if he wanted me to install it and he said he knew very well how to do it.

Farmer installed and that one locked up in about 30 seconds. Therefore, I was an idiot so he took it to a pump shop for a rebuild.

Farmer installed and that one also lasted about 30 seconds.

He came back to the dealer and ordered a brand new Roosa Master as no one, according to him, knew how to work on pumps.

I stopped his rant for a few minutes and asked him to bring it in. That enraged him until he said, WHY? I said because if that new pump locks up, the dealer is then on the hook and has to replace it. If he puts it on, and it locks up, he pays. That must have struck a chord.

The next morning the tractor was in the shop. I put on the new pump and was timing it. I went past the mark so I backed it up. The pump continued to turn the same way. ALL STOP! The pump came off and I slid a crescent wrench on the pump shaft and moved it about 2 inches up and down. There was a loud clunk in the front cover when that happened.

The front cover came off and there was the idler, between the crank and pump with the Timken tapered bearings trashed and it had pulled the bolt and threads out of the block. I replaced the bearings and was trying to come up with a way to fix the block. (Before I knew about Heli-Coil.)  The owner showed up, was told what happened. He grabbed the flat plate that was against the block and the idler and disappeared. He came back an hour later with the idler center welded to the front engine plate. I told him the pump had to run with less than five thousands deflection and he was on his own if the pump seized. He said to put it together.

To this day, if still running, this is the way it was fixed. I certainly hope no one ever pulls that engine apart to see how this was cobbled together.

I would guess your hydraulic head on the pump is locked up and the drive shaft is twisted off. You can pull the pump and if the shaft is broken, go to work and pull the front end off and the front cover. Hope you have better luck with this than I did?

 

 

Nope, pump is fine and spins freely. That is what I was expecting to find too was a seized pump with a broken shaft.  But everything looks ok from the outside.   I'll obviously know more when I tear it apart, but we have been in the fields, and although I really need the tractor on the planter, I'm going to keep going without it.

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Since we have had some rain I finally got it in the shop and tore it apart, and this is what I found.  The idler gear is tight with no wobble or excessive backlash.  I was honestly surprised to see that it still had all its teeth, I thought for sure it would have some broken or chipped ones.  I have not taken the pump back to the shop yet because I wanted to see what failed, but when I slid the shaft back inside the pump, it feels tight too. 

So now the question of the hour: what caused it?    Was it the new pump  or purely coincidental that the gear failed only 10 hours after installation?

So I obviously don't want to reassemble with a new gear and an existing problem to have it come apart again.

 

FCF8EFC3-260E-4DAA-B568-1C65CCF5A3E5.jpeg

1D3F5E6A-4962-4251-BEE1-743D30871585.jpeg

 

 

 

 

 

This struck me as odd, these witness marks weren't on the shaft when I took the old pump off.  Was it caused by the pressure of the gear teeth trying to climb or something inside the pump?

 

4A7E77C5-F9F7-429B-818E-747A20AA2815.jpeg

 

 

 

Was this a probable cause of failure or result from the stress of chewing off teeth?  

98A4BBB9-7DB6-460D-BD91-E73B11729FE0.jpeg

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On 5/6/2020 at 9:30 AM, Injpumped said:

The pump gear is supported by the brass pilot tube in the pump.

Mine appears to be steel, now brass.  Is that an issue?

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As long as you are this far, pull that idler too and see what it has for bearings and the condition.

Now is the time.

Best case, you get away with a used pump gear and back running with a few gaskets and seals.

You are one lucky SOB that your pump did not lock up!

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I bet it's anodized aluminum, ASH industries makes nice replacement pilot tubes, many pump shops use. They work great, are dark grey, so many think they are steel, but they are not. I cannot see how it could cause your issue, unless it spun out of the housing. They are held in place with epoxy.

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Boy thats a odd one.  I would say the idler is innocent.  I would suspect the pump drive or pump but it is weird on how it broke teeth but not touched the idler.  It does seem odd that you did just have this pump redone.  As I mentioned above the rubber on the harmonic balancer looks ok?

Scott

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On 5/6/2020 at 12:47 PM, DT Fan said:

Call me crazy but the engagement of the idler to the crank gear looks shallow to me. Could have contributed to your problem?

yes that looks very shallow to me too, i would have a little anxiety running one like that 

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49 minutes ago, 460 said:

Boy thats a odd one.  I would say the idler is innocent.  I would suspect the pump drive or pump but it is weird on how it broke teeth but not touched the idler.  It does seem odd that you did just have this pump redone.  As I mentioned above the rubber on the harmonic balancer looks ok?

Scott

I'll do a closer inspection on the balancer to make sure the marks are still lined up, but why would the harmonics target JUST the pump drive gear?

 

I took the pump back to the shop today along with the broken gear and shaft.  He looked perplexed and spun the pump around with the broken gear and said it didn't sound or feel abnormal.  They are going to put it back on the calibration stand and run it; I'm hoping they find something - not that they would tell me 😒.  I don't think they are dishonest, but would they say something, I donno.  Time will tell.

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12 hours ago, Injpumped said:

I bet it's anodized aluminum, ASH industries makes nice replacement pilot tubes, many pump shops use. They work great, are dark grey, so many think they are steel, but they are not. I cannot see how it could cause your issue, unless it spun out of the housing. They are held in place with epoxy.

This pump has he anodized aluminum bushing in it and felt tight with the shaft inserted, no excessive play at all.

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