5488 powershift prototype

[401 N Michigan]

Interesting thought about a non compete......I doubt it tho....but possible.....IH could have made it a true joint venture and kept some ownership and  kept their engines and maybe moved JI Case and Farmall  production to one factory and made both....but it was too late....mis management was beyond repair at that time.....if they would have been out of money before JI Case was in 1969 then Tenneco would have made Case the 2nd purchase and IH would have lived on in farm equipment.

[dale560]

I would almost guarantee they had a no. Compete clause in the purchase. It is common to do. Ihc was continuing to supply engines for combines. And caseih wouldn’t want a tractor out there with old 466 in it. Navistar supplies the new model to agco under the Detroit brand and I know  Perkins and other brands were using dt engines.

[Big Bud guy]

3 hours ago, dale560 said:

I would almost guarantee they had a no. Compete clause in the purchase. It is common to do. Ihc was continuing to supply engines for combines. And caseih wouldn’t want a tractor out there with old 466 in it. Navistar supplies the new model to agco under the Detroit brand and I know  Perkins and other brands were using dt engines.

I thought evil JD was the only one that did no compete clause.

[401 N Michigan]

What a steel 430 Million for IH! .....why did Tenneco get out anyway.....wonder how much $ they made on the sale.....

[dale560]

1 hour ago, Big Bud guy said:

I thought evil JD was the only one that did no compete clause.

Even other businesses do. There was a local pizza place in town for years with a modern building and good location. He sold to Pizza Hut for a bunch of money. They had a 60 mile no compete clause. He moved to devils lake Nd and bought a pizza place. Pizza Hut sued him after a year. His nephew was telling us the other day it cost his uncle 500,000 in 1990 dollars. Devils lake is 58 or so miles away from rugby. There was around 59 miles between the 2 businesses. Pizza guy lost in court 60 miles was the key. 
 

as far as IHC goes. There is tape of bud youle talking of 10 liter engine in a 7688 size tractor 300 hp engine. He said they used available 10 liter Cummins engine for testing.  It wouldn’t be a stretch for IHC developing new 466 engine series already by 1985. The new generation pump line nozzle 466/530 570 engine was available from Navistar in the early 90s. Navistar was a cash strapped company until the 4900, 8000 and 9000 series truck became popular around 1990. For them to have a durable new design engine built to those sizes. You would say they were at least in planning mockup stages at the end of Ihc tractor division.  Youle talks about 10 liter , 300 hp 2+2. 10 liter is 611 cubic inches and eventually Navistar produced a 9.0 300 hp so you can deduce they were using a readily available engine to test their new drive line until they could ramp up production of a engine they knew was in the works.

when agco started selling tractors with ihc engines they were doing it with the big  4wd Detroit 60 and front wheel drives offering a Detroit option to set them apart from Cummins.the Detroit in the fwd 55s was a dt series ihc rebranded

the engine adapter  casting on the tractor here is a old ihc style. The new style 466 e engines are almost the same on back but one or two bolt holes and crank center is a bit different. But an adapter for that engine would be as easy to make as one for a 8.3 c series engine.  That is what those tractors need in them a dt 466/530/570 sourced from an agco adapted to those frames and transmissions. That is what ihc would have used in the tractors by 1990

[ACFarmer]

A 40 series Detroit is not just a rebranded dt. There are quite a few differences.

[401 N Michigan]

1 hour ago, dale560 said:

Even other businesses do. There was a local pizza place in town for years with a modern building and good location. He sold to Pizza Hut for a bunch of money. They had a 60 mile no compete clause. He moved to devils lake Nd and bought a pizza place. Pizza Hut sued him after a year. His nephew was telling us the other day it cost his uncle 500,000 in 1990 dollars. Devils lake is 58 or so miles away from rugby. There was around 59 miles between the 2 businesses. Pizza guy lost in court 60 miles was the key. 
 

as far as IHC goes. There is tape of bud youle talking of 10 liter engine in a 7688 size tractor 300 hp engine. He said they used available 10 liter Cummins engine for testing.  It wouldn’t be a stretch for IHC developing new 466 engine series already by 1985. The new generation pump line nozzle 466/530 570 engine was available from Navistar in the early 90s. Navistar was a cash strapped company until the 4900, 8000 and 9000 series truck became popular around 1990. For them to have a durable new design engine built to those sizes. You would say they were at least in planning mockup stages at the end of Ihc tractor division.  Youle talks about 10 liter , 300 hp 2+2. 10 liter is 611 cubic inches and eventually Navistar produced a 9.0 300 hp so you can deduce they were using a readily available engine to test their new drive line until they could ramp up production of a engine they knew was in the works.

when agco started selling tractors with ihc engines they were doing it with the big  4wd Detroit 60 and front wheel drives offering a Detroit option to set them apart from Cummins.the Detroit in the fwd 55s was a dt series ihc rebranded

the engine adapter  casting on the tractor here is a old ihc style. The new style 466 e engines are almost the same on back but one or two bolt holes and crank center is a bit different. But an adapter for that engine would be as easy to make as one for a 8.3 c series engine.  That is what those tractors need in them a dt 466/530/570 sourced from an agco adapted to those frames and transmissions. That is what ihc would have used in the tractors by 1990

Obviously, no compete clauses are very common in all sorts of businesses 

[dale560]

1 hour ago, ACFarmer said:

A 40 series Detroit is not just a rebranded dt. There are quite a few differences.

It is a rebranded dt 466 new generation pump line nozzle engine. Predecessor to dt 466e. It is most definitely a rebranded dt 466 ng. Here are pics of the ng engine and a little history timeline on the original. The ng or e series are mid mount sleeve bigger bore 4.59 than the original dt series 4.30 bore it took 5 years or more to perfect the original dt engine . Later on with no money at hand it would have taken more time. The ng engines were coming but places to install left town. This engine wasn’t what was in front of transmission in original post but this engine was being designed then.

[dale560]

Here are pics of it as a Detroit 40. You can see better in this one the stepped block castings like jd went to for big stroke clearance. The back bellhousing picture the engine kept the classic 2 top bolts like a early dt 400 series.

[DirtBoyz07]

Someone must of been sleeping with someone from Cummins on that one ?

‘Danny 

[dale560]

31 minutes ago, DirtBoyz07 said:

Someone must of been sleeping with someone from Cummins on that one ?

‘Danny 

Don’t know when 8.3 made its entrance but the smaller 3.9 5.9 were being used in case construction by end of 83 or around there. Surprising how most engines are built with mid mount sleeves and high cam shafts. Now they are all overhead or head mount cam. The cams on the new 466 are moved up for crank stroke clearance.

[dale560]

This is a jd 6076 a modern jd 466 version of 4440 engine. They went to stepped out block casting for big crank strokes also. This would go to the 6081 or stroked to 496. So all engine manufacturers were looking fo more cubic inches out of their signature engines of the time

[dale560]

Here a pics of a newer dt series in mfg process. You can still see some of the original ihc look to them but updated. Maybe cdc Cummins copied a prototype dt 466 for the 8.3. Their engine was designed in Indiana also. The 8.3 c was available in late 85 I believe. The first picture shows the backside similarities but crankshaft / flywheel is bigger more bolts and bell housing bolt pattern is almost but not quite the same.

[1066lover]

Just out of curiosity would a dt466 bolt into an existing Magnum. I’ve seen a few Magnums with engine trouble and would love that set up if it’s simple enough.

[Gearclash]

11 minutes ago, dale560 said:

Here a pics of a newer dt series in mfg process. You can still see some of the original ihc look to them but updated. Maybe cdc Cummins copied a prototype dt 466 for the 8.3. Their engine was designed in Indiana also. The 8.3 c was available in late 85 I believe. The first picture shows the backside similarities but crankshaft / flywheel is bigger more bolts and bell housing bolt pattern is almost but not quite the same.

Just some mud porch musings.  So the B and C series Cummins engines were the product of a joint venture between Case and Cummins.  I believe Cummins came into the deal without engines of that size.  Case did have at least one engine of that size, the 504.  It would be interesting to see how similar, if at all, the B and C series engines are to the 504.

[401 N Michigan]

1 minute ago, Gearclash said:

Just some mud porch musings.  So the B and C series Cummins engines were the product of a joint venture between Case and Cummins.  I believe Cummins came into the deal without engines of that size.  Case did have at least one engine of that size, the 504.  It would be interesting to see how similar, if at all, the B and C series engines are to the 504.

Yes some please post, and tell if they think 466 would go into a Magnum 7000, 8900 series.

[dale560]

10 minutes ago, 401 N Michigan said:

Yes some please post, and tell if they think 466 would go into a Magnum 7000, 8900 series.

Danny did it.  5488 engine plate and Early up to 466 c  into A magnum. Easily.

the better more modern ng 466 would be the cats meow. Make it into a dt 570 300 some hp. It would only take a little machining of a 5488 plate or a custom new adapter.

 

i just put pictures of new engine that is actually really old now. 30 years and out of production now. The new generation engine was definitely going to be the new engine for IHC.

[dale560]

Who knows but the engineers who tested the tractors back then. They surely would have had a hot engine in them for power testing. Yours talk of 10 liter in a new 7688. Leads to conventional wisdom 600 inches = 300 long life hp. They had ways of making the Old style 466 almost that big back then. And given design and testing timelines you can bet this new engine was in the pipeline.

 

if you have an old magnum , find a agco 55 series tractor wrecked get the engine out of it with flywheeel and mounts. You have most of the stuff needed. But if you do it make 88 style flip up hood sheet metal and a 88 cab to finish it. This is what a real ihc would have had.

[db1486]

1 hour ago, Gearclash said:

Just some mud porch musings.  So the B and C series Cummins engines were the product of a joint venture between Case and Cummins.  I believe Cummins came into the deal without engines of that size.  Case did have at least one engine of that size, the 504.  It would be interesting to see how similar, if at all, the B and C series engines are to the 504.

Just from looking at the motor you can see the resemblance between the 8.3 CDC and the case 504. But I have no idea if internals are closely related or not

[401 N Michigan]

I wonder if forward air flow would have been on the tractors if this had all happened? 

[DPH1256]

Ih spent millions upon millions developing the axial flow combines and the new transmission. I wonder if they would have made it if they had spent that money on paying down there debt?

[Big Bud guy]

8 minutes ago, DPH1256 said:

Ih spent millions upon millions developing the axial flow combines and the new transmission. I wonder if they would have made it if they had spent that money on paying down there debt?

For a time the AF combines is the only thing that kept the IH name alive.  That was money well spent.  

[dale560]

20 minutes ago, DPH1256 said:

Ih spent millions upon millions developing the axial flow combines and the new transmission. I wonder if they would have made it if they had spent that money on paying down there debt?

That isn’t where they went broke. It was millions spent on foolishness from 1950 on. The axial flow combine was expensive but was what ihc needed their harves equipment was tanking before that.

 

better management from early on would have been good

[Reichow7120]

28 minutes ago, DPH1256 said:

Ih spent millions upon millions developing the axial flow combines and the new transmission. I wonder if they would have made it if they had spent that money on paying down there debt?

They should have never gotten into refrigerators, freezers and such and they should have never been in Construction equipment. Someone should have put a bullet in that division's head long before it was sold off.

Did Solar turbine make them money?

[5088]

1 hour ago, 401 N Michigan said:

I wonder if forward air flow would have been on the tractors if this had all happened? 

Pretty sure I've read elsewhere that the next series of tractors were FAF.