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Never have heard much good about Navistar Maxxforce engines. Supposedly lot of emissions issues. I have a maxxforce 10 which is using 1/3 gallon of antifreeze in 8-10 hours. I talked with the local shop about this they seem to think EGR  cooler issues, The shop had concerns about continuing to run the equipment since it will/could cause problems down stream with after treatment equipment. Question I have is, does IH have a new improved exhaust cooler , is it any better? I see a company called bullet proof which makes EGR coolers.  Does anyone know anything about the product. Also I see several class action law suits about emissions on the maxxforce engines.

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If it is 2008 year model sell it; or fix it and sell it.  That being said the hoses off the egr cooler a made for a lot more heat than standard hoses are.  We had one at work that was an old state truck.  It was sold after the head was off for about 10th time and we came up with a replacement.

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14 hours ago, jnbru said:

If it is 2008 year model sell it; or fix it and sell it.  That being said the hoses off the egr cooler a made for a lot more heat than standard hoses are.  We had one at work that was an old state truck.  It was sold after the head was off for about 10th time and we came up with a replacement.

not 2008   2010-2011 models

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9 hours ago, Gearclash said:

My understanding is that even deleted the Maxxforce engines are a farce.

You can’t legally delete them but the mileage improved ones around here are trouble free

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There's a saying if a Maxxforce powered truck delivers a load on time it was a accident 

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6 hours ago, 856 Custom said:

There's a saying if a Maxxforce powered truck delivers a load on time it was a accident 

Funny, however truly unfortunate, Take one of the most reliable engines (466) ever built and thanks to the emissions turn it into a POS.

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Wonder if that guy in the video still feels as emphatic about Navistar's emissions strategy today as he did then. The decision to avoid DEF darn near killed the company...Navistar is still paying for that decision all these years later in lost credibility with their customers. Sure, DEF has its own set of problems, but at least your not trying to kill an engine by feeding it its own waste product like you do with EGR.

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4 hours ago, SDman said:

Wonder if that guy in the video still feels as emphatic about Navistar's emissions strategy today as he did then. The decision to avoid DEF darn near killed the company...Navistar is still paying for that decision all these years later in lost credibility with their customers. Sure, DEF has its own set of problems, but at least your not trying to kill an engine by feeding it its own waste product like you do with EGR.

So what is the point of EGR anyway. Why can't they get rid of the EGR valve/cooler and get back to basics with only DEF and DPF?

How many years and time did EPA tell them their engine wouldn't pass and Navistar kept on fighting it through courts

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The purpose of EGR is to lower combustion temperatures to lower NOx production of the engine. The exhaust gas goes through a cooler before it goes back into the intake manifold of the engine. Not sure the % of EGR Navistar was trying to use on their MaxxForce engines, but Deere was using somewhere around 35-40% EGR on their TierIVa tractors so they didn't need to use DEF. The problem is that the engine gets its oil diluted running that much EGR pretty quickly; most engine companies had to add extra oil capacity to deal with all the extra crap their engines were having to ingest by running that much EGR. Then there is the issue of cooling exhaust...not much efficiency to be gained there for any reason. And, because of the cooler combustion temperatures because of cooled EGR, you end up with a lot of unburned diesel fuel in the exhaust...so now you need a DPF to collect that soot...and once its restricted a certain amount you spray raw diesel fuel into the exhaust to raise the exhaust temperature to burn out/clean the DPF in a process called "regeneration". But....you don't need DEF in this setup.

DEF, on the other hand, allows the engine to run at normal combustion temperatures so you don't need EGR/EGR cooler/DPF. All the DEF is for is to spray into the exhaust so that the NOx is converted to nitrogen and water vapor by means of a chemical reaction in the SCR chamber. Now, most of today's manufacturers run a combination of all of the above...cooled EGR/DPF and SCR. CNH products just use SCR only on their bigger HP machines....they do use more DEF than other manufacturers that use a combination of all of the above.

I don't recall how many times Navistar got exemptions from the EPA to give them more time to develop their non-DEF emissions...but it was a few. EPA lost their patience with Navistar and basically told Navistar "Crap....or get off the pot". I think it forced Navistar to release an engine/emissions package that was far from ready to the market...and the shortcomings showed up soon after. In a nutshell, it pretty much put Navistar out of the diesel engine business. Sad ending for a company with a long tradition of building good diesel engines. Sad to see how Navistar has turned out because of the decisions made on engine/emissions technology.

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1 hour ago, SDman said:

The purpose of EGR is to lower combustion temperatures to lower NOx production of the engine. The exhaust gas goes through a cooler before it goes back into the intake manifold of the engine.

Why is it better reburning cooled exhaust than just using clean cool outside air and running it like a normal engine so it doesn't overheat and cause all of the other side issues caused by EGR emissions stuff?  So basically you would have an engine with no EGR crap but on the exhaust side all the goodies are in place.

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8 hours ago, 806 man said:

Why is it better reburning cooled exhaust than just using clean cool outside air and running it like a normal engine so it doesn't overheat and cause all of the other side issues caused by EGR emissions stuff?  So basically you would have an engine with no EGR crap but on the exhaust side all the goodies are in place.

I believe that's what the newer case-ih equipment uses. But they use quite a bit more def.

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Exhaust gas=no oxygen, so it doesn't support combustion, so combustion temperatures are lowered, so less NOx is produced. Less DEF required.

Fresh air has oxygen so it supports combustion, creating more NOx.

Another thing to think about with EGR. On our 600 Steigers, we use 7.2 gallons of engine oil for the entire engine....with a 600-hour drain interval. We've had several customers send in oil samples at the 600-hour interval worried about the long drain interval...I've never seen any report come back encouraging them to shorten their drain intervals. Most engines at that HP level may have up to twice the engine oil capacity...and the stuff looks just as dirty a day after you changed the oil as it did when you changed the oil.

Also, most DPF engines have had to go to a low ash engine oil so the DPF doesn't plug with burnt engine oil from inside the cylinders during combustion. CNH went to a low ash diesel engine oil for Tier4B with the SCR chambers having to be more efficient.

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1 hour ago, SDman said:

Exhaust gas=no oxygen, so it doesn't support combustion, so combustion temperatures are lowered, so less NOx is produced. Less DEF required.

Fresh air has oxygen so it supports combustion, creating more NOx.

Another thing to think about with EGR. On our 600 Steigers, we use 7.2 gallons of engine oil for the entire engine....with a 600-hour drain interval. We've had several customers send in oil samples at the 600-hour interval worried about the long drain interval...I've never seen any report come back encouraging them to shorten their drain intervals. Most engines at that HP level may have up to twice the engine oil capacity...and the stuff looks just as dirty a day after you changed the oil as it did when you changed the oil.

Also, most DPF engines have had to go to a low ash engine oil so the DPF doesn't plug with burnt engine oil from inside the cylinders during combustion. CNH went to a low ash diesel engine oil for Tier4B with the SCR chambers having to be more efficient.

In 2014 I started a 3 years lease then renewed for another 2 year lease on a CIH 450 then bought it out last year. The deciding factor over Deere was opening the hood and seeing an engine instead of emissions crap. Running the 450 at 1800 RPM greatly reduces the amount of DEF used versus 2100.  DEF is cheap when compared to potential emissions issues. The Deere engines have been pretty good. More issues with IVT/Final drives

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8 hours ago, 806 man said:

In 2014 I started a 3 years lease then renewed for another 2 year lease on a CIH 450 then bought it out last year. The deciding factor over Deere was opening the hood and seeing an engine instead of emissions crap. Running the 450 at 1800 RPM greatly reduces the amount of DEF used versus 2100.  DEF is cheap when compared to potential emissions issues. The Deere engines have been pretty good. More issues with IVT/Final drives

An independent diesel mechanic I know says the bullet proof EGR coolers are better than the Navistar and tries to use them when he can.   I have never used one.  Our 06 IH with a 570 has always had Navistar coolers because we never had time to wait for a bullet proof.  I agree with your above statement.  At work we needed a tractor to pull a large mixer wagon.  No glider kit trucks anymore so we were trying something new for feeding.  They have not owned anything but a Deere since since at 1086 in the eighties.  I was told to buy whichever tractor I thought was the best/ most reliable.  After throughly examining/ comparing/ talking with guys that had experience with both a 8245R and a Magnum 250 we went with the magnum 250.  That engine / emissions system seems way less complicated than than the Deere.  The tractor has a single stage wastegated turbo rather than two turbos on the Deere.   Thank fact that we got one with less hours and a CVT transmission ( which we are hoping works well for feeding cows) for 15K less than a Deere didn’t hurt either.  

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On 3/29/2020 at 5:07 PM, Paystar5000 said:

An independent diesel mechanic I know says the bullet proof EGR coolers are better than the Navistar and tries to use them when he can.   I have never used one.  Our 06 IH with a 570 has always had Navistar coolers because we never had time to wait for a bullet proof.  I agree with your above statement.  At work we needed a tractor to pull a large mixer wagon.  No glider kit trucks anymore so we were trying something new for feeding.  They have not owned anything but a Deere since since at 1086 in the eighties.  I was told to buy whichever tractor I thought was the best/ most reliable.  After throughly examining/ comparing/ talking with guys that had experience with both a 8245R and a Magnum 250 we went with the magnum 250.  That engine / emissions system seems way less complicated than than the Deere.  The tractor has a single stage wastegated turbo rather than two turbos on the Deere.   Thank fact that we got one with less hours and a CVT transmission ( which we are hoping works well for feeding cows) for 15K less than a Deere didn’t hurt either.  

I've read about bullet proof coolers and their design compared to IH.  How many EGR coolers have you replaced on the 570? I have 2 maxxforce I was thinking about doing the electronic delete or getting a bullet proof cooler on stand by.

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7 hours ago, 806 man said:

I've read about bullet proof coolers and their design compared to IH.  How many EGR coolers have you replaced on the 570? I have 2 maxxforce I was thinking about doing the electronic delete or getting a bullet proof cooler on stand by.

3 in 33000K hours.  It’s a feed mixer truck.  I think one of them was caused by the coolant line to the air compressor going bad and running low on coolant.  The third one was at overhaul at 28k.  That one looked like it had a small leak it was a gummy inside.   The wishbone that holds the lifters from turning broke and ruined the cam so with the cam it got an overhaul kit

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18 hours ago, Paystar5000 said:

3 in 33000K hours.  It’s a feed mixer truck.  I think one of them was caused by the coolant line to the air compressor going bad and running low on coolant.  The third one was at overhaul at 28k.  That one looked like it had a small leak it was a gummy inside.   The wishbone that holds the lifters from turning broke and ruined the cam so with the cam it got an overhaul kit

i would say you got your moneys worth out of those. I thought maybe every 2500-3000 hrs

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  • 3 months later...

I have an 08 max 10 with hundred 1000 on it. Been running good until antifreeze started coming out the exhaust.  Does anyone know what would cause this.  No lights on in the dash ,as soon as you start it when engine is cold and don't stop.

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EGR cooler would be my guess. Possible water in the intake side too then.

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5 hours ago, 806 man said:

EGR cooler would be my guess. Possible water in the intake side too then.

yes........the O-rings go bad and coolant goes directly into the cylinders. Pro star i had did that, replaced coolers under warranty then 3 weeks later ...same thing...appearently  they nicked one of the O-rings and had to replace them again....that time the company had me drive it 1200 miles to the dealer next door to the home terminal to get it fixed, in those 1200 miles i dumped 40 gallons of water into it, drove it another 100,000 miles before they got rid of it.

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