Jump to content

Herrs hydro, Stoen's hydro


1958560
 Share

Recommended Posts

Got a 656 hydro that is very weak, especially in reverse, and have been talking with Herrs in KS about it. I'm thinking about taking it there to get fixed, but a buddy says Stoen's in Glenwood MN did good on a couple of AC garden tractor hydros. Anyone have experience with either company? I like that herrs can run it on test stand, but will probably be a little more $$ than Stoens 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A garden tractor hydro, especially on an AC, is far less complex a system than the IH hydro.  Actually, out of all the hydro's I've worked on, the IH hydro is the most complex.  Far ahead of its time. I've worked with Herr's before over the phone with help testing one when the readings I was getting didn't make sense, and I didn't then have a manual for the hydro I was working on.  Hands down, these guys are the IH hydro experts.

That said, I'm currently working on 2 544 hydro tractors, which has the same hydro as your 656.  While incredibly complex, a pressure test can reveal a lot.  If yours is only weak in reverse, there are a number of likely causes, none of which is a failing hydro.  So, that should help with the dollars you are looking to spend.  I suggest working with Herr's to get some pressure readings.  You might be able to get them enough info to get it narrowed down to a few parts that you can change before pulling it out and shipping it to them.  They (Herr's) sell a pressure test kit, and you can buy the IH manual for your tractor.  Contact Peaceful Creek Manuals for a copy of the IH service book set.  If all this is more than you are comfortable doing, then by all means, send the hydro to Herr's. 

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Herrs is where's I'd send it ....

You get what you pay for. We have our self propelled chopper at the dealership and they fixed the hydro on it. It was 100% in reverse but weak in forward. It ended up being the rear plate was starting to get worn.  

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, 1958560 said:

Got a 656 hydro that is very weak, especially in reverse, and have been talking with Herrs in KS about it. I'm thinking about taking it there to get fixed, but a buddy says Stoen's in Glenwood MN did good on a couple of AC garden tractor hydros. Anyone have experience with either company? I like that herrs can run it on test stand, but will probably be a little more $$ than Stoens 

Most generally if it is weak one direction and strong the other the check valve opposite the weak direction is the culprit.

Herrs is the best place to get an IH Hydro repaired. Raleigh and his crew have developed fixes for some of the unique problems that regularly arise with those units.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have the test kit from Herrs, drive pressure is not up to spec for forward or reverse. In high range, it will get up to road speed, but applying the brakes will stop motion with little to no load applied to engine. Forward is better than reverse, but not strong by any means. It would barely back up the very slight incline into my shop. I got this tractor on an auction a couple years ago and haven't used it due to weak hydro. Previous owner did some work to it but couldnt fix it, so he parked it. Anybody's guess if what he tried to fix was good or bad, so it's time to get it done right. Charge pressure is a little under spec sitting still, but when stroked either direction it drops to about 20 psi or less, but does come back up to around 100 after its moving. As soon as brakes applied to load engine, psi drops off again. I isolated drive control and foot and inch valves with no change. According to Raleigh, it's got a leak internally, and/or charge pump problems. He was helpful on the phone. I was leaning towards Herrs, just wondering what others thought. Thanks!

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

They have some improvements that is only available by them. They also have some used components to supply what they need to rebuild others . We sold them a complete 186 transmission. Raleigh wanted all the controls as there is things there that he reconditions for other people

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, 1958560 said:

I have the test kit from Herrs, drive pressure is not up to spec for forward or reverse. In high range, it will get up to road speed, but applying the brakes will stop motion with little to no load applied to engine. Forward is better than reverse, but not strong by any means. It would barely back up the very slight incline into my shop. I got this tractor on an auction a couple years ago and haven't used it due to weak hydro. Previous owner did some work to it but couldnt fix it, so he parked it. Anybody's guess if what he tried to fix was good or bad, so it's time to get it done right. Charge pressure is a little under spec sitting still, but when stroked either direction it drops to about 20 psi or less, but does come back up to around 100 after its moving. As soon as brakes applied to load engine, psi drops off again. I isolated drive control and foot and inch valves with no change. According to Raleigh, it's got a leak internally, and/or charge pump problems. He was helpful on the phone. I was leaning towards Herrs, just wondering what others thought. Thanks!

After they have helped you so much, it would kind of be a spit in their face to use someone else, don't you think????

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, J-Mech said:

After they have helped you so much, it would kind of be a spit in their face to use someone else, don't you think????

Yes, I do. I just wanted to know if anyone had experience elsewhere. They are further away and a little more expensive.  I did after all buy their test kit, which was enough in itself, for a half dozen fittings and 2 gauges with 1 hose. They could have at least included a second hose so 2 pressures could be checked simultaneously. Do you suppose they sell a hydro to everyone who calls with a question? If I went elsewhere, I planned on sending something for their trouble, because it is appreciated when someone offers help

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, dale560 said:

Myself I would take it apart see what’s wrong? If you are capable. I know parts are easier to get from a person who works a lot on them. You only learn by doing.

I dont have a problem splitting tractor, but too much I dont know about hydros stops me from tearing into it. From what I gather, lots of internals with exacting tolerances, just decided to pick my battles 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, 1958560 said:

I dont have a problem splitting tractor, but too much I dont know about hydros stops me from tearing into it. From what I gather, lots of internals with exacting tolerances, just decided to pick my battles 

Not the tolerances. Just everything has to go back the way it came out. Out of immediate necessity I began my hydro repair career.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

22 minutes ago, dale560 said:

Not the tolerances. Just everything has to go back the way it came out. Out of immediate necessity I began my hydro repair career.

That scares me...... I don't want you working on my hydro's if you don't think the tolerances are critical. 

There are very exact tolerances in a hydro, and cleanliness is next to Godliness during repair.  I think the OP is making a wise choice to have someone else repair it.  I wish more people in the world recognized their own limits and seek out professionals.  Too many people tear into things like this clueless and just leave a bigger mess to fix, costing them more money in the long run. It's one thing to wade a little deeper in the pool to learn to swim.  It's another thing entirely to jump out of a boat into the ocean. 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Push the lever ahead makes it go, pull it back makes it stop. That’s what I got figured out a bigger hammer helps with the tolerances. Seriously for the doubters don’t be afraid of hydro units. All hydro drives are the same principle. The ih tractors have a little different control but are essentially the same as the packaged units on other stuff. If all else fails you can always you tube it. Sometimes lack of money and time makes you jump in the ocean even if you can’t swim and have cement filled shoes. The people that can will figure a way to get shoes off and float to the top.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, dale560 said:

Sometimes lack of money and time makes you jump in the ocean even if you can’t swim and have cement filled shoes. The people that can will figure a way to get shoes off and float to the top.

It's been my experience dealing with those people that they themselves do float back up, while the piece of equipment ends up at the bottom of the ocean.... or in a salvage yard because there isn't anything left to fix after they get done with it. 

My grandad was that way.  Never had the money or time to fix anything right.  Always trying to cobble it and get back to the field.  When he quit, there was no sale.  All the equipment was cut up, save just a few implements. 1066 was sold, but that guy didn't keep it long because he said it was too wore out and money to fix it could be better spent elsewhere.  856 ended up on this farm I'm at now, in a little better shape than it was but only because it was kept in the family.  340 went to the scrap yard and so did the 1440 combine.  All those years of saving a buck left him with nothing but piles of junk. I decided years ago that you are always money ahead to take good care of your equipment.  If you don't have the money to keep it going, it's time to sell it and do something different. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, 1958560 said:

Yes, I do. I just wanted to know if anyone had experience elsewhere. They are further away and a little more expensive.  I did after all buy their test kit, which was enough in itself, for a half dozen fittings and 2 gauges with 1 hose. They could have at least included a second hose so 2 pressures could be checked simultaneously. Do you suppose they sell a hydro to everyone who calls with a question? If I went elsewhere, I planned on sending something for their trouble, because it is appreciated when someone offers help

I know for sure they don't get to sell a hydro to everyone asking questions.  But the hope is that since they were helpful to you and answered questions that if the time comes for it to go to a shop, you choose them, or at least buy parts from them.  I read where you bought the test kit from them.  I'm glad you wanted to send them something for their trouble either way.  Shows good character. 

Sorry if I came across condescending.  This just hits home to me as a former shop owner.  Go out of your way to help someone, for the sole purpose of getting their future business, and later find out they took it to the competition because they are cheaper.  (You get what you pay for.)  Pretty soon you realize that customer just takes advantage of free advice but never gives you work.  Yeah.... BTDT.  Herr's is overly helpful because it gets them business.  If it didn't, they wouldn't do it.  

 

I too thought it odd it only came with one hose....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, J-Mech said:

It's been my experience dealing with those people that they themselves do float back up, while the piece of equipment ends up at the bottom of the ocean.... or in a salvage yard because there isn't anything left to fix after they get done with it. 

My grandad was that way.  Never had the money or time to fix anything right.  Always trying to cobble it and get back to the field.  When he quit, there was no sale.  All the equipment was cut up, save just a few implements. 1066 was sold, but that guy didn't keep it long because he said it was too wore out and money to fix it could be better spent elsewhere.  856 ended up on this farm I'm at now, in a little better shape than it was but only because it was kept in the family.  340 went to the scrap yard and so did the 1440 combine.  All those years of saving a buck left him with nothing but piles of junk. I decided years ago that you are always money ahead to take good care of your equipment.  If you don't have the money to keep it going, it's time to sell it and do something different. 

You do it your way I’ll do it mine. They can cut my stuff for scrap when I’m done. The hydros will work though if nothing else. Like I said before you learn when you have to. Had enough hydro drives apart to know how to fix one. The last time I replaced a stripped shaft on the 2188  45 miles from home on last field of soybeans. Pulled it Sunday , put shaft in Monday morning drove 45 miles put pump up myself had combine running by mid afternoon. I have had many other hydro units apart just give me a big hammer and a dull chisel. Plus the evil of it all I touch the seal with my bare hands.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 hours ago, dale560 said:

You do it your way I’ll do it mine. They can cut my stuff for scrap when I’m done. The hydros will work though if nothing else. Like I said before you learn when you have to. Had enough hydro drives apart to know how to fix one. The last time I replaced a stripped shaft on the 2188  45 miles from home on last field of soybeans. Pulled it Sunday , put shaft in Monday morning drove 45 miles put pump up myself had combine running by mid afternoon. I have had many other hydro units apart just give me a big hammer and a dull chisel. Plus the evil of it all I touch the seal with my bare hands.

I think he is just pointing out that not everyone is qualified enough to do the internal repairs themselves. Me being a pump rebuild shop, see this first hand. This thread his close to home for me, because so many think there's nothing to the pumps, and for a $40 kit they just did what I do. Getting something up and running again, versus rebuilding it are 2 different things. I've seen so many pumps "rebuilt" by the owner, or a neighbor that "did those in school" and those jobs are always more difficult in finding what the inexperienced did to it. There's a reason many shops won't even touch one that has been "just rebuilt" by the owner lol! Lots of you experienced tractor mechanics are very qualified to rebuild hydros or fuel injection pumps. I've learned over the years, not everyone has the same wrenching capabilities.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The thing about a hydro is if one of the plates needs to be lapped it takes special tooling. Tolerance must be kept much closer than other things. Cleanliness it of upmost importance. They had what was called clean rooms for working on hydros

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, bitty said:

The thing about a hydro is if one of the plates needs to be lapped it takes special tooling. Tolerance must be kept much closer than other things. Cleanliness it of upmost importance. They had what was called clean rooms for working on hydros

You can lap the plates but if they are beyond any thing like a tiny groove they are shot. You guys realize I am not that stupid and yes I do work on a lot of hydrostatic pump and motor combos.especially bidis and combines. I learned out of necessity like everybody else. You buy the hydro parts in mostly in assembly’s. Motor and pump   pistons and valve bearing plates with the critical Tolerances come as a assembly. There is no ready adjusting these. You can lap or try to straighten valve bearing plate with sandpaper on a glass or super flat surfaces but that isn’t helping much. When you fix one you replace parts that are needed and clean up the charge check valves and charge pumps. I learned from watching my dad fix a 400 versatile swather that never pulled on one side from new. He took pump apart tried to save money lapped the parts to no avail. At that time he ordered the piston and plates for 500 in 1981. The check valves he cleaned also . That hydro worked after that. He also had a 5000 versatile combine that was almost same principle as ihc tractor. Meaning both pump and motor awash plate had control so all speed was complete on one lever. Same as ihc tractor but you have a range gear. Now most everything else runs adj pump swashplate and fixed motors unless you have 2 speed hydro then they have a high speed motor setting. I have had more than one hydro apart of all flavors and I do learn something new every time. The problem with working on them you need a pump sales place for parts or else you are forced to buy reman stuff from dealers. Now am going back to watching you tube videos. PS. when I was eleven in 81 they had to read manuals to figure It out. Got my education from getting chewed out while handing dad wrenches and running for pieces. First job I ever got to do was paint perm a Tex on a head for a 305? straight six gmc out of a 59 when I was about 7 or 8. Brother who was in kindergarten helped.

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...