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4586 questions for a friend


Farmall1066
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Friend called me today seeking some answers about a 4586 he’s interested in.  The 2 main questions I couldn’t answer are, #1 what are the differentials in the 4586, 1086 rear ends? Just the front one is reversed? And #2 it’s been repowered with an 855 Cummins turning 350hp, will the driveline handle the horsepower? Thank you for any input on this, so I can give him some answers!

Blaine

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I believe that it is 1086 rears..I would vote for the driveline not holding up unless it has correctly sized implements behind it and a gentle operator 

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37 minutes ago, Doc Egor said:

14 series drive frames.

And the 6 cylinder engine runs 1900rpm to maybe 2100rpm instead of the 2600rpm of the V8 so gear selection is different and sometimes odd to get proper field speed.

Correct.  Except 2950 RPM is high idle for the V8.  2250 is likely high idle for the 6cyl. But yes, working load RPM, and gears is much different.  Hp is only 50 more than the V8, and torque rise is only slightly more, if any more.  The V8 motors just didn't last running that high of RPM. 

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Don’t mean to hi jack this thread, but...

I was watching an old IH sales video from Farmington Implement for 43/45/4786 tractors. It mentioned that you could get an optional front axle differential lock on the 43 & 4586s. I’ve seen a lot of 43s & 45s in my life, but never seen one with a differential lock option. Anyone ever seen one so equipped?

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No unless he uses a lot of common sense that is too much hp/torque for a 4586.

Yes, diff locks were optional on 4386 & 4586 (front only).

As Doc stated: 4586 used 1400 series.  4386 used 1086 rear ends, although there might have been a serial number break where the 4386 used 1400 series also, I don't remember....

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Regardless -

I haven't seen the specific tractor in question, but many of these conversions were real chop jobs especially when it comes to scabbing the hydraulic pump drives on to the retrofitted engine. I have also seen many that were automotive engines out of trucks and did not have the correct governor fitted. Heating issues are common as are vibration issues from harmonic convergence with the engine running a different speed. I had a 47 with a Caterpillar in it that was a first class PITA for vibration.

Also - some of the transmission bearings and parts specifically for that Spicer in this application are no longer produced. 

All in all - realistically these tractors should be approached that they are going to have issues on a pretty much a consistent basis due to age and amount of use they have had.

If you can live with the resulting down time and are willing to put the effort and money into the repairs is the decision you have to make.

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14 hours ago, SDman said:

Don’t mean to hi jack this thread, but...

I was watching an old IH sales video from Farmington Implement for 43/45/4786 tractors. It mentioned that you could get an optional front axle differential lock on the 43 & 4586s. I’ve seen a lot of 43s & 45s in my life, but never seen one with a differential lock option. Anyone ever seen one so equipped?

I have never seen one equipped with differential lock. Would be a great feature to have on it though, wish mine did.

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I remember the rear end is an 1086/1486 style. Had a guy with a 4586 where the wheels kept sliding on the axle. He thought it would be a good idea to put a bead of weld on the axle as a stop. Snapped both axles off next to the weld while pulling a field cultivator. Only one I ever worked on. To darn big for the shop equipment I was using dragging it out from underneath that frame.

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I have seen a few of those 45 and 4786s that have been repowered that they did a clean job on.

We thought about looking at a repowered 4586 last spring with a L10 Cummins in it. Things got in the way and we didn't go see it. It was cheap horsepower for the amount of hours we are going to put on it. From the pictures they showed they did a nice job with the repower but i can't say more until I could see it in person which never happened.

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What is different from the 1086 to 1486 rear? They both used 3 1/2" axles, I thought the transmission was the same, ring and pinion the same but brakes had more disks in the 14 than the 1086 did? 

According to this axle chart the 4386 had 3 1/4" axles just like the 4366, 1066,  and 986 had .

Screenshot_2019-05-30-13-43-03.png

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39 minutes ago, Farmall1066 said:

DV 800 in that?

Yes it is.  Tractor only had about 2400 hours on it.  Motor showed no signs of issues, so no reason to change it.  It had sat for at least 10 years prior to us getting it.  Ran weak for the first few days, but eventually loosed up and ran much stronger.  Still not convinced the aneroid is working like it should.  We'll know more this coming spring when it goes to work again. 

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46 minutes ago, bitty said:

What is different from the 1086 to 1486 rear? They both used 3 1/2" axles, I thought the transmission was the same, ring and pinion the same but brakes had more disks in the 14 than the 1086 did? 

According to this axle chart the 4386 had 3 1/4" axles just like the 4366, 1066,  and 986 had .

Screenshot_2019-05-30-13-43-03.png

Pretty much zero difference. Shipping weight same on a 1486 and 1086. Our 4386 has 1066 axles.

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42 minutes ago, J-Mech said:

Yes it is.  Tractor only had about 2400 hours on it.  Motor showed no signs of issues, so no reason to change it.  It had sat for at least 10 years prior to us getting it.  Ran weak for the first few days, but eventually loosed up and ran much stronger.  Still not convinced the aneroid is working like it should.  We'll know more this coming spring when it goes to work again. 

Crankshaft was the weak point on the DV 800 correct?

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12 hours ago, Farmall1066 said:

Crankshaft was the weak point on the DV 800 correct?

I honestly do not know much about the DV 800 except what I learned working on this one, and from some of my old buddies who were IH mechanics at that time.  Near as I have found, the camshaft was the weak point, but they suffered from failures consistent to overspeed.  My friend (who was the IH tech, best in this area) and I had some discussions at length and came to the conclusion that IH just ran the engine too fast.  They needed a motor to fit the size range, so they turned to the truck division.  At the time, the construction division was using the motor in dirt scrapers snd dozers with good results.  To get the HP and torque rise needed for a 4wd tractor, they had to speed it up from the either 1900 or 2100 RPM rating (I cant recall off the top of my head) in the industrial equipment, to 2950 RPM for the tractor.  A huge mistake in our opinion.  In my opinion, and my friends, that was the mistake.  The engine just couldn't handle that kind of load at that kind of speed.  Which, by all rights is kind of odd.  A V8 engine by design can typically handle higher rpm than an inline engine.  It should have been able to handle it.  But, lots of original engines in TD20's still running strong with thousands of hours on them, while very few still survive in 4wd tractors with far less hours.  Only difference being how fast they ran. 

IH did have a habit of constantly upping RPM on an engine to get more hp instead of reworking the pump.  Think of the 400 series engines.  2400 rated speed went to 2650 and if I recall up one more time after that.  But it wasn't difficult to get the same hp out of the same engine at lower speeds by reworking the pump.  Engine life increased, and fuel consumption went down.  Just one of IH's mistakes.  But, from a production standpoint, it's far easier to reset a top speed than rework how a pump is set.

Interesting thing is, IH did have the DT 817 which was a large I-6, but at the time it was already old.... but very proven in reliability and power.  But it was likely a lot heavier of an engine too. 

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4 hours ago, J-Mech said:

Interesting thing is, IH did have the DT 817 which was a large V8, but at the time it was already old.... but very proven in reliability and power.  But it was likely a lot heavier of an engine too. 

The DT817 was an in-line 6.  It was used in the TD25 and also the 4300.
 

some engine details.  IH 4300 engine stats

TD 25 engine

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What is the bore and stroke of the DV800?

Edit. I looked it up and it had a 5.31” bore and a 4.5” stroke.  That doesn’t strike me a being a particularly long stroke. It doesn’t seem to me that the stroke length itself would have been the reason these engines didn’t stay together in the high rpm applications. 

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  • 8 months later...
On 2/6/2020 at 5:49 PM, Jacka said:

Looks nice.

Question for all of you that know these inside and out....some of the 86 series have what I remember as the same decal scheme as a 1486, and there are others that have a decal scheme that mirror more of an 88 series look.  Assume that is indicative of an early model versus a later model year?  

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On 2/5/2020 at 7:21 PM, Farmall1066 said:

30 foot cultivator, and 28 ft disk 

We pulled a 28 foot 490 disk with our 4586 and it handled it good. A lot of those got repowers. Ours got redone with a 903 Cummins. After rebuilding the original motor the 3rd time dad said that was enough of that. Amazing how much better it handled the 800 10 bottom plow after that. 

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1 hour ago, Illini95 said:

Question for all of you that know these inside and out....some of the 86 series have what I remember as the same decal scheme as a 1486, and there are others that have a decal scheme that mirror more of an 88 series look.  Assume that is indicative of an early model versus a later model year?  

As far as I know, there were only two sets of decals for an 86 series 4wd.  The early one similar to the 86 series, and the later decal which was similar to what the 2+2 tractors had.  Does that help? I don't remember the serial number break, but seems like it was around 1000 or so. (Started at 501 as I recall.)

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