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Some of you think I am referring to our young people only.

No.

It`s all age groups/occupations/religious beliefs (or lack of).

Just so much selfishness AND lack of morals.

I`m not even going to address the comment about morals made earlier.

It`s not difficult to see our surroundings. For me anyway. Others, well...

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This topic CAN be political but wasn`t my intention. It`s people as a whole in all aspects of life, including politics. The way they treat each other on the roads/Walmart/church/online/child

Never before have I witnessed so much hatred... but it is more than just hatred, it`s total desperation.  I feel so sorry for my grandkids.  And I don`t know exactly what to do abo

That is what they say about a free or democratic society. The first 100 years people vote for freedom because they remember what tyranny was like. The next 100 they loosen up start social programs and

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Some of you are much, much older than I. Wonder if your parents, grandparents, etc. made the same comments about how society is going downhill, world is coming to an end, the next generation is lazy and entitled, blah blah blah. I suspect the comments being made today are echoed throughout time. Surprise! The world is still spinning and will continue to do so for billions of years.

When I'm a thousand years old like you guys and yelling at those dang kids to turn their music down, I'll try to remember to tell younger generations how selfish they are, lack of morals, etc. Just like my parents. And their parents. And their parents. And their parents. And their parents. And their parents. And their parents. And their parents. And their parents. And their parents. And their parents. And their parents. And their parents. And their parents..........

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1 hour ago, iowaboy1965 said:

So because i think murder is wrong thats just an opinion? If someone else thinks its ok it is? Your definition of morality is a bit erroneous. 

If you told me you thought murder was wrong then that means to me, it is wrong to kill the unborn, wrong to kill your neighbor for his goods,  wrong to kill a thief for taking your goods, wrong to kill someone because they are oppressing someone else's beliefs,  wrong to kill someone who has killed someone else.   Its just wrong.

Or some people may say its wrong to kill a certain group of those people listed and ok to kill another because of some reasoning.

its confusing....   but calling a moral an opinion seems sort of accurate to me in this context.   

 

 

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6 hours ago, Indy Farmer said:

You guys need to remember that what you refer to as 'morals' are no more than just a personal opinion. No two people share the same morals. Complain about the current generation all you want, but remember which generation raised them...

I would challenge you to look a little beyond anyones opinion - it all boils down to a choice between what is right/wrong. We are born with that instinctive nature - take a baby for example they have no clue what right/wrong is but if they make a mess or crap their pants they look for ok or not? a baby knows its not right to crap their pants and will likely hide in a corner when they do it - our choices determine where we land in regards to what is ok or what is not ok in our society - as society devalues things or degrades what is right/wrong so goes the neighborhood. 

The opinion part gets thrown in out of prejudice due to standards - are you more respectable than the guy that wears flip flops and shorts vs a suit to a funeral? when we start comparing/judging then we stop looking at right/wrong and what is respectful.

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8 minutes ago, searcyfarms said:

I would challenge you to look a little beyond anyones opinion - it all boils down to a choice between what is right/wrong. We are born with that instinctive nature - take a baby for example they have no clue what right/wrong is but if they make a mess or crap their pants they look for ok or not? a baby knows its not right to crap their pants and will likely hide in a corner when they do it - our choices determine where we land in regards to what is ok or what is not ok in our society - as society devalues things or degrades what is right/wrong so goes the neighborhood. 

The opinion part gets thrown in out of prejudice due to standards - are you more respectable than the guy that wears flip flops and shorts vs a suit to a funeral? when we start comparing/judging then we stop looking at right/wrong and what is respectful.

On the contrary. You are the one teaching your child not to crap their pants. I've known a few kids who couldn't care less if they have a mess in their pants. They do it and keep right on trucking along. "Potty training"? Children lie, steal, hurt others, etc. all the time. They will continue to do so until outside forces intervene. Do you punish them for doing so? If so, you're associating an unwanted action with some form of punishment, while rewarding them for a wanted action. That's why they hide in a corner. Not because they know it's wrong, but because they know their actions have warranted a spanking. It's the exact same reason your dog will hide its tail between his legs for getting in the trash. He doesn't know why getting in the trash is wrong, he just knows he's not supposed to.

Your assertion that kids know right from wrong is only because parents have instilled their own values in them. It's why you generally see good kids come from good families, bad kids come from bad, kids having the same religious denomination as their parents, going to the same college as their parents, thinking that a 560 was a good tractor like their dad told them, etc.

Morals aren't natural. They're constructs of our upbringing. Go find an undiscovered tribe in the rainforest and ask if their morals line up with those of your own. If you can keep them from sacrificing and eating you, of course...

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Morals: A person's standards of behavior or beliefs concerning what is and is not acceptable for them to do. Not questionning your morals MTO as you've shown to be an upstanding member on this forum and I'm sure in society as well. But no one has lived the same life as you and as such more than likely their morals will differ.

Morals are the prevailing standards of behavior that enable people to live cooperatively in groups. Moral refers to what societies sanction as right and acceptable.

Most people tend to act morally and follow societal guidelines. Morality often requires that people sacrifice their own short-term interests for the benefit of society. People or entities that are indifferent to right and wrong are considered amoral, while those who do evil acts are considered immoral.

That wasn't from me, just a quick google search. I think a large part of the problem is that it's become all about one person, not the group as a whole anymore. If it doesn't benefit the person, why should they do it to help out the group? Not saying it's right but I think that is a part of what we're seeing.

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4 minutes ago, Indy Farmer said:

On the contrary. You are the one teaching your child not to crap their pants. I've known a few kids who couldn't care less if they have a mess in their pants. They do it and keep right on trucking along. "Potty training"? Children lie, steal, hurt others, etc. all the time. They will continue to do so until outside forces intervene. Do you punish them for doing so? If so, you're associating an unwanted action with some form of punishment, while rewarding them for a wanted action. That's why they hide in a corner. Not because they know it's wrong, but because they know their actions have warranted a spanking. It's the exact same reason your dog will hide its tail between his legs for getting in the trash. He doesn't know why getting in the trash is wrong, he just knows he's not supposed to.

Your assertion that kids know right from wrong is only because parents have instilled their own values in them. It's why you generally see good kids come from good families, bad kids come from bad, kids having the same religious denomination as their parents, going to the same college as their parents, thinking that a 560 was a good tractor like their dad told them, etc.

Morals aren't natural. They're constructs of our upbringing. Go find an undiscovered tribe in the rain forest and ask if their morals line up with those of your own. If you can keep them from sacrificing and eating you, of course...

i will give you a little but not all, we are born with instinctive nature just like an animal - your claim good/bad is not accurate - who is to say what is good or bad then ? who declared something good or bad and you are claiming there are good / bad people/kids? what are you using as a standard to base good or bad on? where did you get that ? 

i know plenty of families with good / bad kids mixed together with good parents or bad no rhyme or reason there - id be called a good kid by some but rotten by others and i have what others would deem/have deemed bad siblings and the same set  of parents  - i still say it boils down to the choices we make personally - we choose daily in every decision we make whether its acceptable or not in any given moment 

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4 minutes ago, searcyfarms said:

i will give you a little but not all, we are born with instinctive nature just like an animal - your claim good/bad is not accurate - who is to say what is good or bad then ? who declared something good or bad and you are claiming there are good / bad people/kids? what are you using as a standard to base good or bad on? where did you get that ? 

i know plenty of families with good / bad kids mixed together with good parents or bad no rhyme or reason there - id be called a good kid by some but rotten by others and i have what others would deem/have deemed bad siblings and the same set  of parents  - i still say it boils down to the choices we make personally - we choose daily in every decision we make whether its acceptable or not in any given moment 

Who is to say indeed. I've always figured the person to say what is right or wrong is the one with the biggest stick. What my parents told me is good or bad likely differs from what yours told you. As I've been saying, it's an opinion.

That's why it's dangerous to claim your morals are the right morals and force them on others. Those who would justify force to uphold their myopic views of morality would be following the footsteps of Pol Pot, Genghis Khan, Hitler, Stalin, Che Guevara, etc.

 

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Just now, Indy Farmer said:

Who is to say indeed. I've always figured the person to say what is right or wrong is the one with the biggest stick. What my parents told me is good or bad likely differs from what yours told you. As I've been saying, it's an opinion.

That's why it's dangerous to claim your morals are the right morals and force them on others. Those who would justify force to uphold their myopic views of morality would be following the footsteps of Pol Pot, Genghis Khan, Hitler, Stalin, Che Guevara, etc.

 

aaaaah but how did the first person that taught the person with the biggest stick a good/bad moral compass? like i said we are all born with it and we have to make decisions/choices 

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2 minutes ago, MTO said:

Just a WHOLE bunch of words .

One is needed.

Selfishness. 

which boils down to a choice that someone made - life is about choices we make one with every breath

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6 minutes ago, MTO said:

Just a WHOLE bunch of words .

One is needed.

Selfishness. 

Sounds like socialism is the pinnacle of morality for you if you're worried about selfishness. Try this book for some enlightening reading. (also Atlas Shrugged is by far the best I've ever read. It's a good take on selfishness)

the-virtue-of-selfishness.jpg

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10 minutes ago, searcyfarms said:

aaaaah but how did the first person that taught the person with the biggest stick a good/bad moral compass? like i said we are all born with it and we have to make decisions/choices 

If you believe in such things, recall the story of adam and eve having to be told what is right and wrong. They certainly weren't born with the knowledge.

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adam was by himself and he had to take care of animals and name them do you think a bunch of animals were acting accordingly and getting along just fine? they did bad things and he saw it - how about taking care of the garden? do you think there werent weeds or trees or soil to take care of and he had to figure otu what was good/bad and make a choice how to deal with it? I guarantee if he had weeds he found out real quick they were bad for the crops bad for his blistered hands, bad for his body etc.....we dont ahve a timeline of how long it took him to name all teh critters. how long he took care of them alone, how much they fussed n fought, steeping in crap was not good im sure he found out also,  or how long he had to take care of teh garden before eve either ( well at least that i am aware of ) nor how long he was asleep while making eve. 

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38 minutes ago, Indy Farmer said:

Sounds like socialism is the pinnacle of morality for you if you're worried about selfishness. Try this book for some enlightening reading. (also Atlas Shrugged is by far the best I've ever read. It's a good take on selfishness)

the-virtue-of-selfishness.jpg

Socialism is wanting equal outcomes not equal opportunity. That's why socialist don't mind stealing someone else's success to mitigate their own failure. After a while you'll run out of successful people to rob from and all that's left is poverty for everyone. It's the reason socialism has always and will always fail.

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15 minutes ago, searcyfarms said:

adam was by himself and he had to take care of animals and name them do you think a bunch of animals were acting accordingly and getting along just fine? they did bad things and he saw it - how about taking care of the garden? do you think there werent weeds or trees or soil to take care of and he had to figure otu what was good/bad and make a choice how to deal with it? I guarantee if he had weeds he found out real quick they were bad for the crops bad for his blistered hands, bad for his body etc.....we dont ahve a timeline of how long it took him to name all teh critters. how long he took care of them alone, how much they fussed n fought, steeping in crap was not good im sure he found out also,  or how long he had to take care of teh garden before eve either ( well at least that i am aware of ) nor how long he was asleep while making eve. 

I didn't see an answer in there.

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1 minute ago, Indy Farmer said:

I didn't see an answer in there.

you didnt? you didnt see that adam saw animals doing things what were not good ? or that weeds were bad for other plants or that too many of one thing chokes out another?  or that bad dirt didnt grow things etc.......... maybe im not good at explaining things which i have been told before 

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I suppose this scenario will take this topic to a place that will bunch MTO's knickers. Let's try another.

What I was getting at is there isn't a person alive that is born with a universal societal understanding of morality. All had to have been taught at one point. Just watch a couple kids playing. It's inevitable that one kid will take another's toy. Taking things isn't a taught action. It's an impulse driven by the needs of the self. You, as the parent, now steps in and teaches the child that taking toys from others is a bad thing. You've just instilled a morality (your own) stating that taking things that aren't yours isn't acceptable. Now, what if you weren't watching? The kid takes the toy, causing the other to throw a fit. You're unaware, and at some point the situation moves past the moment. Did the thieving child somehow learn that stealing was wrong? If so, where? How does the child go from stealing to thinking that his actions were amoral? There is no universal standard in which to learn from.

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It's easy Indy, "do unto others as you would have them do unto you". You dont have to be taught that you dont like being punched in the face, stolen from/robbed, cheated, lied to, etc.  If you dont like it being done to you it's not a stretch of the imagination that a person can/will figure out that others might not like being done that way either. I think man is capable of understanding that without being taught. So morals dont always have to be taught. But I have come to realize that you will be a contrarian regardless of the topic or what side you choose to champion. As long as your on the opposite side of the issue of a known conservative. You dont have to go there on all these threads espousing your "superior beliefs" that fall on their face in real life.

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