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This story died about as fast as the UPS driver


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I have no law enforcement training, have never been in combat, have never been threatened with any sort of weapon, have never had my adrenaline up except for heated discussions, close calls with machinery, and a couple of car wrecks, and stepping in the middle of a covey of quail in the dark.   So I may not be very well qualified to make a judgement on this, but I have to believe that there was a better way to handle this.

Warning that the first video is pretty graphic.

https://www.zerohedge.com/political/outrage-over-police-using-bystanders-human-shields-florida-ups-truck-shootout

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46 minutes ago, Steve C. said:

I have no law enforcement training, have never been in combat, have never been threatened with any sort of weapon, have never had my adrenaline up except for heated discussions, close calls with machinery, and a couple of car wrecks, and stepping in the middle of a covey of quail in the dark.   So I may not be very well qualified to make a judgement on this, but I have to believe that there was a better way to handle this.

Warning that the first video is pretty graphic.

https://www.zerohedge.com/political/outrage-over-police-using-bystanders-human-shields-florida-ups-truck-shootout

Well the title of the story is misleading. They used innocent bystanders cars as shields not the bystanders themselves. They should have gotten the occupants out first though. The bad guys wouldn't care about the the bystanders anyway so they wouldn't be effect shields. Mow down the bystander and the cop then has no shield.

I question why they didn't back off and let em run until they had them in a safer area. They already knew that these guys were willing to shoot. So instead of forcing a showdown where they did they could have used better judgement IMO. But then I don't know the whole story yet either. The crooks may have done something to force the cops into the shootout. I want to know who actually shot the UPS driver? IMO this is where they should have cleared the area of bystanders, secured a perimeter, called in a negotiator and the SWAT team developing the situation from there. Again maybe I don't know all the details and maybe the cops on site were justified in their actions.

 

Rick

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saw original news blurb ad   cops were the aggressor criminals, SOP

"THEY" took and escalated the fight to where the public was forced into pinball flight

exactly why there is little mention and public will NEVER know accounting on the bullets

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1 minute ago, mmi said:

saw original news blurb ad   cops were the aggressor criminals, SOP

"THEY" took and escalated the fight to where the public was forced into pinball flight

I linked to this article as it was only one I've seen that actually shows unedited footage of the bodies slumping out the right side door.  The same video on youtube had that blurred out.

No question the bad guys had it coming.  It's ultimately their fault. But I agree with OT, I'd like to know more about what happened.  It appears it could have been handled much better, but there's quite a bit we don't know.

BTW, both of the robbers had very long, very bad criminal records.

https://www.nbcmiami.com/news/local/fbi-identifies-both-suspects-in-ups-car-chase-and-shooting/2159547/

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Looks like some cops may have went a little gung ho. I thought it was protect and serve, it doesn't appear that they tried to get the innocent drivers out of harms way at all. They could have tried to disable the truck (shoot out radiator/engine/fuel tank/tires) instead of pumping all those rounds into the cab knowing that there was a hostage inside. Looks like there will be a few "confidential" settlements paid out to several people over this. At least the cops didn't have an armored APC like some police have, I could only imagine them smashing cars with it trying to get to the robbers. I believe a lot of police dept.s have became too militarized in recent years.

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18 minutes ago, ArkLa 1086 said:

Looks like some cops may have went a little gung ho. I thought it was protect and serve, it doesn't appear that they tried to get the innocent drivers out of harms way at all. They could have tried to disable the truck (shoot out radiator/engine/fuel tank/tires) instead of pumping all those rounds into the cab knowing that there was a hostage inside. Looks like there will be a few "confidential" settlements paid out to several people over this. At least the cops didn't have an armored APC like some police have, I could only imagine them smashing cars with it trying to get to the robbers. I believe a lot of police dept.s have became too militarized in recent years.

Yeah, sad thing is the crooks are so heavy armed now too.  Cop just trying to keep up.  

But, yeah that's a really poor example of judgment.  Imo.  Why there?  It has gps an a chopper on the truck.  Watch, let em get to a quieter area?  Hiding behind cars with people in?  Not "human shield" but wth?  You now make the car the target only thinking of yourself.  Those innocent people wouldn't stand a chance.   The amt of rnds looks pretty high.  Why when they know a hostage is involved?  Why at very busy stop light?  Why 100s of rnds for 2 perps?  Alot of whys.

  Man I respect cops and am glad they do their jobs.  But...from our angle and armchair, alot should of been handled better.  

Pray for families 

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A report I heard on FOX news said the crooks shot the UPS driver. Was his first day with UPS,  wasn't supposed to work but was called in to fill in for a no-show.

The typical 9mm pistol won't penetrate a typical car door,  so the innocent bystanders in the cars could be safe depending on what the crooks had for weapons.  That lack of penetrating power of the 9mm is why I don't have one or want one.

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6 minutes ago, DOCTOR EVIL said:

A report I heard on FOX news said the crooks shot the UPS driver. Was his first day with UPS,  wasn't supposed to work but was called in to fill in for a no-show.

The typical 9mm pistol won't penetrate a typical car door,  so the innocent bystanders in the cars could be safe depending on what the crooks had for weapons.  That lack of penetrating power of the 9mm is why I don't have one or want one.

and the glass?  Poor decision making all around and blessed more did not die or be injured.  

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Innocents get killed daily in crossfire.

Dunno why this one is different.

The army calls it collateral damage, eh OT?

If the crooks had large weapons, they could have killed many more if not stopped.

If a cop had died instead of the innocent woman?

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1 hour ago, MTO said:

Innocents get killed daily in crossfire.

Dunno why this one is different.

The army calls it collateral damage, eh OT?

If the crooks had large weapons, they could have killed many more if not stopped.

If a cop had died instead of the innocent woman?

I think most are asking why was their crossfire?  Let them get out of the busy areas and get them.  A heli and gps were following the van.  I for one cannot see the reason for here and there at that time for the assault on the truck.  Kill the crooks, I am all in.  Wait for a opportune moment where the general public wont be threatened as much....even more so all in.  Like I said, just alot of questions.  Maybe there is a great explanation for the timing and location of this event.  BUT, I have not seen anything come forth so far.  Just feel like the driver of the car had 0 reason to die and seeing the cops behind a car with people in is kinda disturbing.  Same feeling that I got when the pile of crap officer at the FL school shooting hid in the doorway and not went to investigate the gun shots. 

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Gunmen were firing at police from the UPS truck during the 30 mile chase. 

The gunfight didn`t BEGIN at the stoplight, it ended there.

And it was a 70 yr old man killed in his car.

They HAD to stop them then and there.

The gunmen could have just opened fire on people sitting in the cars had they NOT taken them out. 

Family asking why didn`t they use a sharpshooter/negotiator?

Yeah, there is one sitting at every intersection...

And why did UPS truck stop? It certainly had room to weave further through stopped/slowed cars. 

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It appears that traffic stopped the UPS truck.

Far more happened than the 30 seconds max of video we seen.

Ballistics will prove who shot who.

The pucker factor was beyond belief for those cops. Ending this appeared to be their goal as death would continue if not stopped.

It's awfully easy to "Armchair Quarterback" this after the fact. This will be settled by more knowledgeable people than us.

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24 minutes ago, Diesel Doctor said:

 

It's awfully easy to "Armchair Quarterback" this after the fact. This will be settled by more knowledgeable people than us.

Me and my oldest son try to make it a habit to watch live PD on Friday and Saturday nights, I would not want to be nor would I want any of my family to be a cop.  The amount of nuts on drugs with guns under seats during stupid traffic stops for things like having a light out is just crazy.  They take a huge risk just going to work, let alone when things go real nuts and people are actually shouting at them.

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1 minute ago, TP from Central PA said:

Me and my oldest son try to make it a habit to watch live PD on Friday and Saturday nights, I would not want to be nor would I want any of my family to be a cop.  The amount of nuts on drugs with guns under seats during stupid traffic stops for things like having a light out is just crazy.  They take a huge risk just going to work, let alone when things go real nuts and people are actually shouting at them.

Plus every goof ball out there has a camera and video camera on their phone ..i know as long as they follow the rules should be allright, but stuff can be taken out of context or only show part of the story...

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3 hours ago, MTO said:

Innocents get killed daily in crossfire.

Dunno why this one is different.

The army calls it collateral damage, eh OT?

If the crooks had large weapons, they could have killed many more if not stopped.

If a cop had died instead of the innocent woman?

Thing of it is Mark is you can be places where the rules of engagement don't allow you to shoot into a crowd even if you are taking fire unless you have A: a clear target B: minimal chance of hitting an innocent bystander. That means if you come under fire and you cannot ID the shooter and have a clear shot the only option is to move to a safe location. Other places the bad guys can be machine gunning a crowd of men, women and children and you can do nothing unless they fire at you. Watch the opening scenario of Blackhawk Down. That exact thing can anf has happen/ed. 

Like I said before, need more info before I can really make a judgement on what happened. And the news media is going to try to make the cops look bad.

For those who comment on the marksmanship of the cops? Go out, exercise until you heart rate is about 120 BPM and then immediately try to engage pop up targets with a 3-5 second exposure time while you are doing 3-5 second rushes. That will replicate the adrenaline dump your body will experience when you come under fire. Then tell me how accurate you are. Oh forgot. Cut your shooting down to about 50 rounds once a year, twice if you are lucky. Then add in that a lot of you targets are going to be 50-75 yards and you will be firing a pistol, 9MM. Then tell me about accuracy.

Rick

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What I`m saying is if deal went down exactly as it did and a cop was killed along with the driver and gunmen INSTEAD of the bystander, there would be no tears or questions asked.

Many would say Thank You police for stopping these bad guys.

Bystanders have been dying since Wyatt Earp days.

Heck, I think Matt Dillon even hit a few!

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40 minutes ago, MTO said:

What I`m saying is if deal went down exactly as it did and a cop was killed along with the driver and gunmen INSTEAD of the bystander, there would be no tears or questions asked.

Many would say Thank You police for stopping these bad guys.

Bystanders have been dying since Wyatt Earp days.

 

That could become a dangerous precedent Mark. Collateral damage if it becomes readily acceptable would only go up because both the police and military would quickly capitalize on that attitude. They would feel justified "we accomplished the mission/did our job" and we would soon find it unacceptable. Go read the full history of the bombing of Dresden Germany 13-15 Feb 45. And then realize that there was no significant military or strategic target that would warrant that type of attack. It's one of the reason that Air Marshall Harris RAF Bombing Command nickname changed from "Bomber Harris" to "Killer Harris" even among the Brits.

If you go back in history just a little a western lawman of fame heard someone running up behind him after a gun fight, turned a fired thinking it was a bad guy and killed his own deputy. It wasn't accepted and he moved on shorty after that.......Wild Bill Hickok was his name.

I do most often thank cops for doing their jobs. But I also hold them accountable for screw ups too.

Rick

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9 minutes ago, oldtanker said:

That could become a dangerous precedent Mark. Collateral damage if it becomes readily acceptable would only go up because both the police and military would quickly capitalize on that attitude. They would feel justified "we accomplished the mission/did our job" and we would soon find it unacceptable. Go read the full history of the bombing of Dresden Germany 13-15 Feb 45. And then realize that there was no significant military or strategic target that would warrant that type of attack. It's one of the reason that Air Marshall Harris RAF Bombing Command nickname changed from "Bomber Harris" to "Killer Harris" even among the Brits.

If you go back in history just a little a western lawman of fame heard someone running up behind him after a gun fight, turned a fired thinking it was a bad guy and killed his own deputy. It wasn't accepted and he moved on shorty after that.......Wild Bill Hickok was his name.

I do most often thank cops for doing their jobs. But I also hold them accountable for screw ups too.

Rick

 

9 minutes ago, oldtanker said:

What I`m saying is if deal went down exactly as it did and a cop was killed along with the driver and gunmen INSTEAD of the bystander, there would be no tears or questions aske

 

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