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Sledgehammer

What about a 450 LP?

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Has anybody ever spent much time around a 450 LP?  I’ve always heard good things about the 450 but have never run one personally. I assume the LP version would be lower production most likely.  Any feedback?

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We had one growing up, but it has been converted to gasoline.  Was one of my favorite machines to operate, great tractor.  Had to add octane booster to each tank though!

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I have heard that 450 LP heads are rare...(Think $$$)

Also that they tend to crack easily.

Things to think about.

Mike

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dad purchased a 450 gas and had it switched over to LP before he even took it home. It honestly was the best tractor of that time on the farm. Days ahead of the 560 LP.  He eventually had it switched back to gasoline and it never did run as good as when on LP. Just a darn good tractor to say the least.

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The LP's are sweet runners. I worked on many IH LP's as my dealer sold hundreds of LP burners.

Once an LP is running, it will not cough, sneeze, wheeze and die because it is not warmed up.

You can run the engine 100 hours and the oil will still look like new. It is very clean burning.

But fuel can be an issue and you will burn about 1/3 more propane than gas. Less BTU's/gallon of propane vs. gasoline but propane is a lot cheaper.

Unless you are close to town to run in and fill the tank, you will need a bulk tank and fill hose.

If you currently have an LP tank for heat, then you are almost set.

Most tanks can accept a liquid line for filling your tractor.

Your LP dealer can get that set up for you if you don't have one now. It's easy to fill but you must be careful as LP is very cold and can freeze skin.

Shut the propane valves off on the tank and that propane will still be good 20 years from now.

Gasoline will only be a memory with sludge left in the carburetor.

Propane has many good qualities and a few on the downside.

It's your choice to mess with it, or not.

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1 hour ago, Diesel Doctor said:

The LP's are sweet runners. I worked on many IH LP's as my dealer sold hundreds of LP burners.

Once an LP is running, it will not cough, sneeze, wheeze and die because it is not warmed up.

You can run the engine 100 hours and the oil will still look like new. It is very clean burning.

But fuel can be an issue and you will burn about 1/3 more propane than gas. Less BTU's/gallon of propane vs. gasoline but propane is a lot cheaper.

Unless you are close to town to run in and fill the tank, you will need a bulk tank and fill hose.

If you currently have an LP tank for heat, then you are almost set.

Most tanks can accept a liquid line for filling your tractor.

Your LP dealer can get that set up for you if you don't have one now. It's easy to fill but you must be careful as LP is very cold and can freeze skin.

Shut the propane valves off on the tank and that propane will still be good 20 years from now.

Gasoline will only be a memory with sludge left in the carburetor.

Propane has many good qualities and a few on the downside.

It's your choice to mess with it, or not.

Ive been around filling LP tanks for forklifts and am familiar with LP.  There just aren’t many LP tractors around here. I was called by an individual last night that knows of one that will be for sale so I was trying to do my homework to decide whether or not to be interested. I think it has been in the same family for possibly it’s entire life and has run recently.  Going to go look first 😊

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2 hours ago, Diesel Doctor said:

The LP's are sweet runners. I worked on many IH LP's as my dealer sold hundreds of LP burners.

Once an LP is running, it will not cough, sneeze, wheeze and die because it is not warmed up.

You can run the engine 100 hours and the oil will still look like new. It is very clean burning.

But fuel can be an issue and you will burn about 1/3 more propane than gas. Less BTU's/gallon of propane vs. gasoline but propane is a lot cheaper.

Unless you are close to town to run in and fill the tank, you will need a bulk tank and fill hose.

If you currently have an LP tank for heat, then you are almost set.

Most tanks can accept a liquid line for filling your tractor.

Your LP dealer can get that set up for you if you don't have one now. It's easy to fill but you must be careful as LP is very cold and can freeze skin.

Shut the propane valves off on the tank and that propane will still be good 20 years from now.

Gasoline will only be a memory with sludge left in the carburetor.

Propane has many good qualities and a few on the downside.

It's your choice to mess with it, or not.

Did you happen to work for Schmidt Implement , I swear every propane tractor I have ever worked on had a Scmidt Implement sticker on it , they must have sold alot of them .

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Since Mike mentioned the head for a 450 LP here is the pricing and info according to the Steiner parts book I got a few days ago

28EF3193-54EC-4775-A377-C68D34C2023E.thumb.jpeg.0c15579b5a4d8eb8b919318e69283bca.jpeg

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1 hour ago, IHhogfarmer said:

Since Mike mentioned the head for a 450 LP here is the pricing and info according to the Steiner parts book I got a few days ago

28EF3193-54EC-4775-A377-C68D34C2023E.thumb.jpeg.0c15579b5a4d8eb8b919318e69283bca.jpeg

That head is for the tractor pullers. The 450 gas had a "Colder" intake manifold than prior engines of that series, the 248, 264, etc. The LP had higher compression and was even colder than the gasoline head.

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Thanks for the correction and education Dr. E 

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I never had one but it wouldn't get kicked out of the shed for using funny gas if one showed up here .

I do have a propane head (new aftermarket Riley tractor parts) on my 450 with power dome pistons and it requires 110 octane ....

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1 hour ago, bitty said:

I never had one but it wouldn't get kicked out of the shed for using funny gas if one showed up here .

I do have a propane head (new aftermarket Riley tractor parts) on my 450 with power dome pistons and it requires 110 octane ....

                                    CHEATER !!!                    lolol  ......

 

                                        HP

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To be honest, I’m not looking for a puller. I’m hoping for an honest original tractor that runs well. I would like to set up something like this for local plow days and never more than the local county fair just to see how it would do. Too many deep pocket local farmers to get serious. I would rather have a 30 acre user than a 300 foot puller. On top of that I have always liked the idea of a 450 to go with Great Grandpa’s 350 gas tractor that I have. 

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Hammer---

 Never been around any 450 model much.

But lots of experience with L-P.

Any factory L-P would come with higher compression pistons, higher compression head and most likely a L-P designed intake manifold.  All of these items compensated for an otherwise loss of power related to the L-P having less BTUs per gallon.  (as mentioned in earlier posts)

When you look at the Nebraska tests-----most similar models will be rated at approximately the same HP regardless of fuel.

It's my understanding the L-P heads and pistons are commonly used on the older model "pulling tractors" while burning high octane gasoline.

Big plus for you and the L-P-------is you  and Hammer, Jr. and can blow your steam whustle while riding in parades or cross country rides.

 

Hammer, Jr. will like it!!!👍

 

Happy Thanksgiving------make sure that boy eats plenty of Turkey tomorrow

DD

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22 minutes ago, Delta Dirt said:

Hammer---

 Never been around any 450 model much.

But lots of experience with L-P.

Any factory L-P would come with higher compression pistons, higher compression head and most likely a L-P designed intake manifold.  All of these items compensated for an otherwise loss of power related to the L-P having less BTUs per gallon.  (as mentioned in earlier posts)

When you look at the Nebraska tests-----most similar models will be rated at approximately the same HP regardless of fuel.

It's my understanding the L-P heads and pistons are commonly used on the older model "pulling tractors" while burning high octane gasoline.

Big plus for you and the L-P-------is you  and Hammer, Jr. and can blow your steam whustle while riding in parades or cross country rides.

 

Hammer, Jr. will like it!!!👍

 

Happy Thanksgiving------make sure that boy eats plenty of Turkey tomorrow

DD

Thanks Anson. I understand the draw from pullers towards the LP parts.  That makes sense. “Hammer Jr” spends about 25hrs a day playing with tractors so I’m sure I won’t have trouble getting his vote.  You have a wonderful Thanksgiving also. I have a lot to be thankful for including all my Red Power friends. 

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43 minutes ago, Sledgehammer said:

To be honest, I’m not looking for a puller. I’m hoping for an honest original tractor that runs well. I would like to set up something like this for local plow days and never more than the local county fair just to see how it would do. Too many deep pocket local farmers to get serious. I would rather have a 30 acre user than a 300 foot puller. On top of that I have always liked the idea of a 450 to go with Great Grandpa’s 350 gas tractor that I have. 

I never did think of the head I posted being for pullers. If I knew it I wouldn’t have posted it. 

When you get the chance I’m sure us red power fans would like to see some pic of this 450 LP your interested in. 

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A propane engine is around the same hp as a gas or diesel. It's just that the propane takes higher compression to run so this is why the head makes more compression. Very neat tractor to have, buy it ....

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25 minutes ago, IHhogfarmer said:

I never did think of the head I posted being for pullers. If I knew it I wouldn’t have posted it. 

When you get the chance I’m sure us red power fans would like to see some pic of this 450 LP your interested in. 

It may be a flop. I’m going off of an independent farm mechanic’s description. Haven’t seen it yet. He said the nose was dented when the man’s foot slipped off the clutch and the muffler (not the manifold) was broken.  He said he heard it run 2 yrs ago and it is stored inside. The owner is looking to get it running and sell it.  I got lucky when someone told the mechanic that I like older red tractors and that he should talk to me about it. I know the man otherwise so he had my number and called me. 

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On 11/27/2019 at 12:25 PM, FARMALL FIXER said:

Did you happen to work for Schmidt Implement , I swear every propane tractor I have ever worked on had a Schmidt Implement sticker on it , they must have sold alot of them .

Yup

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I overhauled a 400 LP for a guy years ago.   I didn’t see anything about them to dislike beside whatever inconvenience that refueling would be.  That tractor had an Ensign regulator on it and I discovered it had a ruptured diaphragm the first time I tried to start the engine.  Ended up rebuilding the regulator.  That was an interesting experience as you have to do some hunting to find parts for it.  Then when I did get a rebuild kit it did not include a frail little compression spring that had succumbed to rust.  Found a “will work” spring through Century Spring I think and we were good to go.

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On 11/27/2019 at 8:14 PM, Sledgehammer said:

To be honest, I’m not looking for a puller. I’m hoping for an honest original tractor that runs well. I would like to set up something like this for local plow days and never more than the local county fair just to see how it would do. Too many deep pocket local farmers to get serious. I would rather have a 30 acre user than a 300 foot puller. On top of that I have always liked the idea of a 450 to go with Great Grandpa’s 350 gas tractor that I have. 

Original 450 LP used a head like pictured for sale with flat top pistons. Notice in picture the dips in casting above the intake ports, May want to feel up with hand to see if its made that way when purchasing.  Not unusual for heads to be switched on those  some time previous if wanting a original. Also the manifolds were bad about cracking,  Also intake and exhaust parts of the intake and exhaust not joined in middle on the original. Dave

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The gasoline engines need heat to the intake manifold to vaporize the gasoline so it burns.

This is why the exhaust manifold is connected to the intake on the 450, and all other gas engines. 560's had the coil spring and flapper in the manifold to provide this heat. 

Propane is a gas, it does not need to vaporize since it already is, so no heat is required to the intake.

This is why when an LP tractor is converted to gasoline, they sometimes do not change the intake manifold to a heated one. (Trying to be cheap)

What you then have is a hot July day, 100 degrees, tractor has been running for hours and when you let the clutch out too fast, it dies.

Beyond annoying.

But LP is the opposite. As long as it is getting gas, you can drop the clutch, throw a fast load at it and it will not faulter. Guys with loaders on them,  just loved them for that reason. They worked the same at 100 degrees or 10 below zero.

I see propane now is $1.48/gallon here. Gas is $2.44. Do the math as to the costs. Propane will use about 1/3 more for the same power as gasoline.

Lets look at the 560. IH said the diesel had XX horsepower. They then wanted the gas and LP to have the same close horsepower. That way the farmer could know that he could get the same amount of work out of the gas, LP or diesel. IH wanted these the same, if not, very close in horsepower. The gas then took more fuel/hr than the diesel and the LP took more fuel yet than the gas. The difference was the costs of the fuel and your pleasure. All options for the farmer and what he liked. 

For some reason, LP engines run much smoother and sweeter. It is like they run on their own. It is something you need to be around to witness. I see you can now buy LP ice augers and weed whackers. You can convert your lawn mower over to LP if you want as well as your car/pickup. LP is here to stay.

The down side: LP engines should have sodium filled, Stellite exhaust valves, if worked real hard for a long time. Factor LP's came with these valves. I have seen an 806 LP cut an exhaust valve like you used an acetylene torch. I do believe  there was more wrong with that 806 other than being an LP. Would I want to plow, all day, using an LP, NO. But for lighter work and occasional pulls, they are the Cats A$$.

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I want to add something to Diesel Doctors comments.  As stated, on an LPG system the LP is a gas already when it hits the carb.  But there are two way to pull LP from the tank, from the top of the tank (gaseous) or bottom top the tank (liquid).  On a prolonged hard pull, the tank cannot keep up the vapor supply if the regulator is pulling off the vapor valve.  That is not a problem if the system is set to pull off the liquid supply, but then the regulator needs a heat supply to vaporize the LP as it is coming into the regulator.  The Ensign regulator I worked on had a heat exchanger in it for engine coolant circulation to provide the heat needed to vaporize the liquid propane.  The correct procedure to get one of these engines going if it is going to work hard is to start it on the vapor draw, then when the engine is warmed up switch it to liquid draw.

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On ‎11‎/‎27‎/‎2019 at 5:14 PM, Sledgehammer said:

To be honest, I’m not looking for a puller. I’m hoping for an honest original tractor that runs well. I would like to set up something like this for local plow days and never more than the local county fair just to see how it would do. Too many deep pocket local farmers to get serious. I would rather have a 30 acre user than a 300 foot puller. On top of that I have always liked the idea of a 450 to go with Great Grandpa’s 350 gas tractor that I have. 

    IMHO , a 450 is a very solid tractor and being on factory propane makes it all the better. I knew of few of them out here very dependable .

      I would say the weak spot would of been the head if abused. 

      But today that problem is solved with the new 450 available, Price is reasonable relative to what they got for original repaired heads before,  I have a SMTA on propane , at first it was a crap shoot to find a decent L.P. head because the pullers had snag them all up and most were welded  more then several times and still leaked and they were getting 2000.00 plus for them

        In rebuilding my SMTA I went to 41/8 pistons and bought the new L.P. head had machine shop put in hard valves and seats ,etc. and that been back in 2015-16 she runs like a top and is very snappy.

   So, my point is if this tractor is running good now and your wondering of future problems you will not have problems rebuilding her and she'll be a tough plow day tractor, along with her good 450 reputation, she'll have the added L.P. set up to make her unique.

       Tony

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We had a couple propane burners growing up. One was a factory moline UB special. Other was a ford 961 dad had converted. Always thought they were not bad on fuel under light to medium load. Dad always said use the vapor draw in winter and liquid draw in summer. Far as i know thats what we did. I drove the minnie a fair amount on a new holland mower/conditioner as well as with the 5 bar new holland hay rake.

The 961 lived at the south farm most of the time with a loader on it to load a feed wagon out of pit silo and then unload wagon for fat calves.

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