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IowaGreg

574 second hydraulic filter

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Hello;

First time post, need help with what seems to be a unique situation...

I have a gas 574 with a DuAl 320 loader installed.

It's my understanding that it was purchased new, with loader, by the previous owner, around 1972. The previous owner has passed away. The dealership that sold the tractor is no longer in business.

My problem is with the *additional* hydraulic filter on this tractor. I am only guessing that this filter was installed as an option to provide additional flow capacity for the hydraulic pump as the loader is a heavy duty unit. The 'regular' filter, the one with a can and long bolt, are in the normal position on the left side. There is another filter on the right side. I stumbled across the fact that this was a filter while browsing through the online CIH parts catalog. You can see the parts listing here: 


Case IH Online Parts

See photos 1 and 2 of the assembly on the tractor. It's apparently a suction filter, taking oil right into the hydraulic pump. It's located under the right foot plate, where you would place your foot when not using the brake pedals.

I purchased both of the filter kits from my local dealer, drained the oil, installed the left side 'regular' filter, then started to install the additional filter. See from the photos and the parts diagram - there is a two-piece housing for the filter. The removable portion, which is toward the front, is secured to the rest of the housing with a stamped inverted v shaped metal ring clamp. That clamp pulls flanges, one on each part of the housing, together. The flanges form an inverted V, if they were touching eachother.  Between the flanges is an o-ring that is trapped between them and seals the housing as the clamp pulls them together. There is a bypass valve that fits into the open end of the filter, held in by the removable cover when it's in place.

There are also three depressions, equally spaced, into the removable portion of the housing. I don't know what their function is, other than to center the filter in the housing during assembly. Those are part of what I'm dealing with. The replacement filter diameter is larger that the diameter limit imposed by those three depressions. As you can see in Photo 3, the filter I removed from the housing has deflections / dents around the media at one end, in order to allow the filter to fit. The filter I removed is identical to the new one supplied by my dealer - same part number and same diameter - too large. The replacement filter doesn't have dents in it.

I went back to my local dealer, and talked with a person in parts as well as the service manager. Neither of them had seen this hydraulic filter before, and didn't know that it was installed on a 574 or similar tractor. I asked them if they had any procedure for 'denting' the outside of the filter to fit, or another part number for a filter that would fit without needing to be 'modified'. They did not.

So I went back to my shop, gently pressed the new filter into the removable housing to give me some idea as to where to make the dents, pulled it out, and worked on making  three dents in the filter as best I could and re-assembled, filled the unit with 9 gallons of oil. For a few minutes, I was very pleased, then I could tell I was getting air into the system. The additional filter housing was leaking.

Now I have yet to stop the leaking. Oil is leaking out and I can tell I'm pulling air in when the tractor is running. The clamp won't seat well all the way around the housing. It's got one bolt at one side, as you can see. Opposite the bolt is stamped metal - there's no hinge, etc. there. The housing and clamp are not available from CIH as replacement parts, only the filter kit, which includes the filter and replacemnt o-ring.

I believe the unit may have been damaged due to brush, snow, or something else, as the removable cover only fits onto the housing at a certain arrangement, leading me to think that one or both are out of round. I have photos of the whole thing before I started disassembly and am working toward getting the clamp, cover, and housing aligned exactly as they were to see if that yields a leak-tight result.

I'm about ready to remove the footplate (below the brake pedals) above the unit for better access, so I can see how the clamp is seating around the flanges, but have to trace out where an apparent return spring goes. I'll need to remove it to get the footplate off and want to be sure I know what it does before I touch it. Also about ready to purchase the CIH service manuals for the tractor. I like the unit, it's been reliable, and winter is approaching!

I can't help but wonder if the filter housing design changed during the production life of the 574 and a newer housing would accept the replacement filter better.

Questions for the forum:

1) Has anyone run into this and discovered a different filter that fits into the housing without 'modification'?
2) Has anyone had success replacing the entire filter with another housing / element that works? I'm guessing that since this is a suction side filter the flow capacity of the replacement filter would be critical to success.
3) Any suggestions on tractor salvage outlets where I may find a replacement housing and clamp?

4) Other ideas very welcome


Thanks!!!!

Photo 1.jpg

Photo 2.jpg

Photo 3.jpg

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Individual parts are nla. The filter assy from auxillary power supply page did not show nla. Don't mean it is available. Doesn't say it isn't. If it is and if it's affordable. There would be a filter inside with a number on it to solve both your problems. Couple of big ifs.

Good luck

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Hi, to me it would appear that your 574 has the additional hydraulic pump mounted on the right side of the trans/diff case.
This setup is normally used on the industrial 2500A models with a backhoe installed.
Normally the regular hydraulic pump that supplies the 3pt, PS, PB and PTO is sufficient to operate a normal IH 2250 loader.
Does your loader have extremely large diameter cylinders that it would require this separate hydraulic pump?   

Is this the setup your 574 has for external hydraulic pump?
https://partstore.caseih.com/us/parts-search.html#epc::mr50613ar621777


The IH service manuals can be downloaded from: 

 

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Thanks to snoshoe's post I started digging further into the online parts listings and realized that this 574 does have an additional side-mounted pump - it is the setup mentioned in jimb2's reply. Being new to tractors, I hadn't considered that it was possible there were two pumps on the unit.

The Du-Al 320 loader has 2.25" diameter cylinders. I'm pretty sure the original owner purchased the tractor and loader together, so I suppose the additional pump was added to support the requirements of the loader, as you suggest.

It also appears the filter housing (item 9) has been hit or damaged somehow, as it's out of round. I carefully reassembled everything again. getting the two parts of the housing oriented as they were before disassembly. It seemed to go together better. The clamp is also somewhat twisted, as if the entire assembly was pushed back and up by something below the tractor at some time in the past.

However, when I started the tractor to check for hydraulic leaks, it barely ran. The float valve was not closing in the carb, and I had fuel pooling in the hose leading from the air cleaner tube to the carb. Just got a carb kit today, hope to replace the float valve this weekend.

When it rains, it pours...

Still confused as to why the filter won't fit in the canister well, wondering if the canister's been dented or mis-shaped enough to cause that, or if IH changed the design at some point and the current filter just won't fit in the canister I have - my 574 was built in 1972 based on the serial number. Posted on a couple tractor salvage sites hoping there's another canister out there somewhere, but I'm guessing this is a fairly rare setup.

Many thanks for the replies and the link to the service manual! More reading to do!

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… The filter element is available, but a replacement filter 'assembly' (the two-piece housing the filter goes into) and the clamp for the assembly are not available. 

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Is there any reason it *HAS* to be that specific filter assembly? Looks pretty janky to me.  Lots of generic hydraulic filter units out there that use spin-on filters.

Surplus Center for about $30. A few fittings and a couple of barb ends to fit in the hoses, and Bob's your uncle.

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4 hours ago, Matt Kirsch said:

Is there any reason it *HAS* to be that specific filter assembly? Looks pretty janky to me.  Lots of generic hydraulic filter units out there that use spin-on filters.

Surplus Center for about $30. A few fittings and a couple of barb ends to fit in the hoses, and Bob's your uncle.

Most all of those spin-on filters will be return line filters. Bypass will be set at 20-90 psi??? This is a suction filter. Bypass must open at inches of vacuum.

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1 hour ago, snoshoe said:

Most all of those spin-on filters will be return line filters. Bypass will be set at 20-90 psi??? This is a suction filter. Bypass must open at inches of vacuum.

Not at all.  Surplus center has a nice selection of Suction filters from 9 to 32 gpm.   Here's one example:

 https://www.surpluscenter.com/Hydraulics/Hydraulic-Filters/Filter-Assemblies/1-1-4-NPT-25-GPM-Zinga-Suction-Filter-9-4544.axd

For $45 plus some hose barb fittings....I'd say that would be a good upgrade.   But then I hate "canister" filters.   

If you want the original, then I think JimB is on the right track--look at the 2500A parts.

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11 minutes ago, Jeff-C-IL said:

Not at all.  Surplus center has a nice selection of Suction filters from 9 to 32 gpm.   Here's one example:

 https://www.surpluscenter.com/Hydraulics/Hydraulic-Filters/Filter-Assemblies/1-1-4-NPT-25-GPM-Zinga-Suction-Filter-9-4544.axd

For $45 plus some hose barb fittings....I'd say that would be a good upgrade.   But then I hate "canister" filters.   

If you want the original, then I think JimB is on the right track--look at the 2500A parts.

That would be an excellent option, replace the canister filter with a spin on  filter and I would relocate it to some other location where it is not as likely to be damaged and easily replaced.

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28 minutes ago, jimb2 said:

That would be an excellent option, replace the canister filter with a spin on  filter and I would relocate it to some other location where it is not as likely to be damaged and easily replaced.

I expect you could find a WIX hydraulic filter and base at the WIX site to fit your needs that way you could get a filter for an application so the replacement filter would be available inr the future.

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On 11/1/2019 at 9:49 AM, snoshoe said:

Most all of those spin-on filters will be return line filters. Bypass will be set at 20-90 psi??? This is a suction filter. Bypass must open at inches of vacuum.

Surplus Center sells both types, suction and return.

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Quote

 

Things seem to be going downhill on this 574. I have a problem with the carb now, apparently the float valve is not working. Discovered fuel is leaking out the air inlet to the carb after running the engine for a few minutes. Got a new valve and seat, main gasket (bowl to throttle body). Tested float in hot water, no bubbles, so it seems OK. Installed new valve and seat with gasket supplied, and new bowl / throttle body gasket. Re-assembled. Removed the rubber elbow between air cleaner tube and carb to see whether I had fixed the problem. Ran engine for a while. shut down. After a couple minutes, fuel dripping out the air inlet again.... This is the Marvel Schebler TSX-959 carb. I've read a couple posts suggesting replacement of the carb. Are there other flow paths besides the float valve? Do I replace it again?

 

Thanks;

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20 minutes ago, IowaGreg said:

Things seem to be going downhill on this 574. I have a problem with the carb now, apparently the float valve is not working. Discovered fuel is leaking out the air inlet to the carb after running the engine for a few minutes. Got a new valve and seat, main gasket (bowl to throttle body). Tested float in hot water, no bubbles, so it seems OK. Installed new valve and seat with gasket supplied, and new bowl / throttle body gasket. Re-assembled. Removed the rubber elbow between air cleaner tube and carb to see whether I had fixed the problem. Ran engine for a while. shut down. After a couple minutes, fuel dripping out the air inlet again.... This is the Marvel Schebler TSX-959 carb. I've read a couple posts suggesting replacement of the carb. Are there other flow paths besides the float valve? Do I replace it again?

 

Thanks;

Lots of things to check. Is float height set correct? Is there excessive side play on float pin? Does float contact bowl at any spot? Are screens in place and in good shape preventing dirt in needle? Does float drop to far causing needle to bind? Does bowl gasket have proper hole allowing atmospheric pressure to bowl?

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A new needle and seat isn't going to be worn out after a couple of minutes of running. No need to replace. You either don't have the float set at the right height, or the float is hanging up on the inside of the carburetor. Just take it apart, adjust and try again. It can take multiple tries to get it right.

Use the "blow test" to verify operation of the needle and seat. With the carb upside down you should not be able to blow into the inlet. With the carb upright, you should be able to blow into the inlet. With your mouth... Maybe want to get a clean piece of hose for this, but I know some just "pucker up" and deal with a little gasoline flavoring.

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Nothing like a little gasoline flavor to go with your morning coffee.. Will take the carb off and do some more investigating. 

Greatly appreciate the suggestions!

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After adjusting the float and doing the blow test, re-assembled. After a couple test runs to check progress on stopping aux. hyd. filter leak, the anti-diesel solenoid valve failed. Replaced that, moved the jet that threads into it from the old valve, installed with new gasket. Now, I need to manipulate the choke to get the engine to run at higher than 1/4 throttle. I have adjusted the float again (now just under 1/4") but still as I advance throttle the engine rpm falls off after a few seconds, have to add choke to keep running. I suppose the 1/4" spec I've seen for the MS carb float setting may not be correct for the 584, but I doubt that. Don't really want to go back to having fuel coming out the air intake to the carb again! Removed sediment bowl, replaced screen and gasket, no improvement. It just feels like the fuel flow to the engine is insufficient. Things I plan to check:

- Fuel tank for obstruction / rust, etc. Any info as to how to remove fuel tank level sensor? Never had it out, but would like to visually check that side of the saddle tank as it's where the fuel pump feed is connected.

- Fuel pump. I don't know of a good way to look at pressure, other than at the carb. Any idea as to what the pressure should be at idle and/or WOT?

Manifold vacuum seems to fall off below 18 as I advance throttle, engine starts to stall. Adding choke brings rpm back up, and manifold vacuum. 

- Ignition timing. Manual states it should be set at 20 deg. BTDC at WOT with no load, and at idle it is what It is, apparently.

Anyone had this issue in the past? I'm getting tempted to replace the M-S carb, I'm concerned I missed something in the carb that caused this problem. Have had it apart many times, as I've adjusted the float. Carb halves seem to mate well, both surfaces look good and flat with straightedge. Gasket appears to have holes in the right places. I've yet to find a good parts document that shows this particular TSX 959 carb; the generic MS documents show all the parts for Type A, B, and C carbs.

Doing something about the aux. hydraulic filter is now looking like a longer term project. Will need tractor to blade snow, preferably without using the choke to keep the engine running..

 

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The general rule of thumb is, if you have to use choke to run, AF is off. Either not enough fuel or too much air.

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I know you’ve had it apart many times but it’s always been my experience when the engine won’t run without choke then your high speed jet is plugged or obstructed. 

Just a thought, John 

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Yep, I always chase the fuel first.

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