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mader656

Another fuel debate

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Is number one fuel @3.50 a gallon, can't find it in red, really that much better in the winter than number 2 red fuel @2.35. Plus addative a penny or two a gallon...

For ease of winter start/ not gelling

 

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Why the price difference? Up here it's all the same price. We've run summer diesel, no 2 I guess, in the winter before with a anti gel, but that's only good till about -30c. I think there's winter diesel, or number 1, available already but we dont want to run it till harvest is done with since it burns quicker.

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I should add the best supplement we've used in summer fuel for anti gel is the red trek fuel enhancer. The power services white jug is pretty good, as I'm sure all other brands are. We just had the best luck with red tek. A few years ago we caught with a early cold snap and needed the 2+2 for hauling hay. It also had a full tank of no 2 diesel. No way it would run at -30 so we dumped about half a bottle of the red tek stuff in and tried to stir it around. Let it sit about an hour, fired the tractor up and let it idle about half hour. Still wouldn't rev up much so dad worked the steering back and forth for a bit, let it sit about half hour and away it went. Never stalled or missed once. And it was getting down to -40 at nights but it was still running good. Finally burnt enough out we could top up with winter diesel. 

But last year even the red tek wasnt working great below -30. Maybe theres more biodiesel in the blend now, idk. Its just easier to use no 1 when it gets cold

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In the distillation process gasoline is lighter and comes off first. Then kerosene. Then diesel. Someone told me no.1 diesel is just kerosene. Kerosene would be lighter and less likely to freeze. I don't know if this is true or not.

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20 minutes ago, MarkG said:

Someone told me no.1 diesel is just kerosene.

I was told the same thing. I use a mix of my own of #1 ana #2 and don't have any trouble with gelling but then again it doesn't get as cold as some of you guys see .

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I use Howe’s treatment, both summer and winter, haven’t had issues, don’t have much opinion otherwise. We had a round last year with the tractors gelling up but they had been topped off with what turns out was summer fuel by the time I decided I’d get some Kero to put in the damage was done and no room to dilute, dragged them into the heat, siphoned out a bunch , new filters etc. now I put it right in the skid tank. Regardless of time of year. 

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27 minutes ago, vtfireman85 said:

I use Howe’s treatment, both summer and winter, haven’t had issues, don’t have much opinion otherwise.

Same here. We have a 400 gallon tank for diesel and I put the Howe's in at the recommended rate or a little heavier when ever the fuel tank gets refilled. I also put a sulfur additive in at the recommended rate at the same time. The 986 has not given me any trouble fuel wise at -10° or lower. The throttle cable freezing though is an ongoing battle.

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5 hours ago, db1486 said:

Why the price difference? Up here it's all the same price. We've run summer diesel, no 2 I guess, in the winter before with a anti gel, but that's only good till about -30c. I think there's winter diesel, or number 1, available already but we dont want to run it till harvest is done with since it burns quicker.

50 cents of difference is road tax on the number one fuel over the red fuel that I normally get... The rest I would guess is volume at the gas station as no 1 is rare vs the 1000s of semis that fuel there a day.

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7 hours ago, mader656 said:

Is number one fuel @3.50 a gallon, can't find it in red, really that much better in the winter than number 2 red fuel @2.35. Plus addative a penny or two a gallon...

For ease of winter start/ not gelling

 

I can always buy #1 off the truck as it gets closer to winter. They do sell a winter blend which I think is 30-70 or 40-60 but I mix mine 50-50 and have never used the additive.

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The big question is how cold does it get by you?  #2 has more BTU per LB than #1 so if gelling isn’t an problem #2 fuel is a no brainer.  But.  #2 starts to wax and plug filters around 20*F.  With additives it will usually be okay down to 0* or -5*F.  50/50 #1/#2 is usually good down to -25*ish.  Better run straight #1 after that.  These are actual fuel temps, if everything is stored in a warmish place, shucks you can run #2 all winter.  Your mileage may vary!!

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1 hour ago, mader656 said:

50 cents of difference is road tax on the number one fuel over the red fuel that I normally get... The rest I would guess is volume at the gas station as no 1 is rare vs the 1000s of semis that fuel there a day.

Oh that makes sense. I thought both were at the pump prices. I re read it and see that's what you wrote. My bad. It's about a 30-40 cent/litre difference here between farm and at the pump

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What rig you running it in?  

Most people use way more additive than needed so the cost per gallon is wrong.

 But if your buying 25 gallons and save 50 cents a gallon I would think you will save money adding anti-gel additive.  I wouldn’t have any problem with that to below zero.  

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1 hour ago, AKwelder said:

What rig you running it in?  

Most people use way more additive than needed so the cost per gallon is wrong.

 But if your buying 25 gallons and save 50 cents a gallon I would think you will save money adding anti-gel additive.  I wouldn’t have any problem with that to below zero.  

My equipment, that can't be plugged in without a generator, I know the number one starts better than 2 does but at what I don't know is if it's worth the 1.15 a gallon cost.  

2 hours ago, Gearclash said:

The big question is how cold does it get by you?  #2 has more BTU per LB than #1 so if gelling isn’t an problem #2 fuel is a no brainer.  But.  #2 starts to wax and plug filters around 20*F.  With additives it will usually be okay down to 0* or -5*F.  50/50 #1/#2 is usually good down to -25*ish.  Better run straight #1 after that.  These are actual fuel temps, if everything is stored in a warmish place, shucks you can run #2 all winter.  Your mileage may vary!!

The mordernish pickup with fuel heater in the warm garage is number 2 all the time...

It gets to 30 below here but I don't run equipment then. -20 is common and will plow just enough to open road then...

I just can't predict weather all winter long and have to pick soon so I don't have a payloader full of 2 when it's cold and i need it...

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Clear and dyed (red) is the same exact fuel. The dye is added as I load my transport at the pipeline and classifies it as off-road, no highway tax collected fuel.

Y#1 is further refined than X#2.

Y#1 is a (drier) fuel with less wax to plug filters when it gets really cold. It also has less energy and lubricity. Because of this some think it is not a good idea to run straight. 50/50 blend with X#2 is very common. If I'm looking at a week of below zero weather, I have no problem running straight Y#1. I will add Howes for added lubricity.

Both bulk plants I deliver to put a winter additive package in the straight X#2 I bring them. Claim it's good to -30°. When it gets down to 0° I blend in Y#1.

I have used Howes and Power Service with good results. I also keep a bottle of Diesel 911 in each piece of equipment with a diesel motor. When the filters start plugging, the sooner you can get it in the tank, the better it works.

Change fuel filters often or watch fuel pressure gauges close. Easier to do in the shop than out on the highway or pasture.

Fuel filter heaters are great if they're working.

 

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3 hours ago, lightninboy said:

You MIGHT get away with #2 and treatment in the winter, but I wouldn't try it.

That would be me.  I’m a glutton for punishment so I see if I can get my feeding equipment through the winter on treated #2.  My skid loader usually plugs the filter if temps get very much below zero for a while.  Wrapping it in a tarp helps a lot I found. 

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4 minutes ago, Gearclash said:

Wrapping it in a tarp helps a lot I found.

I think that's why the old Heat Housers worked well. They kept the wind off the fuel filters and held engine heat inside to keep the filter warmer. Even on my 966 with cab I will cover the sides of the engine with tarp like the HH's used to do. 

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I always ran pure #1 in the pickup in winter. Figured I did not want the grief of being "jelled up" and the higher price fuel was cheaper than one tow.

To each their own.

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Not sure what the trucking co. I drove for bought for fuel, probably straight #2 because of cost. I carried a gallon or two of Power Service with me. If I bought fuel on the road I'd get "Winterized" fuel,  some blend of #1 & #2, but hard telling how much #1.

   The penalties of a jell-up on the road far out-weighed the cost of PS or blended fuel.  With my BIG truck I sure missed the HP the #1 fuel caused.  But cold tires and cold grease or oil in just the trailer wheel bearings slowed me up for a while too.  I'd take off from Davenport only running 50 mph and by La Salle/Peru I'd be running 60-65.  Hook up to a different trailer in Chicago and be back running 50-55 for a while.

When I drove my F250 diesel to work I'd buy "Winterized" fuel, plus if temps were going to drop below zero I'd give it a full dose of Power Service. The fuel filter canister on the 7.3L has a heating element, but it wasn't very big,  think I saw something like 70 watts stamped on it.  I ALWAYS ran a winter front on it,  keep as much heat in as possible.

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5 hours ago, Gearclash said:

That would be me.  I’m a glutton for punishment so I see if I can get my feeding equipment through the winter on treated #2.  My skid loader usually plugs the filter if temps get very much below zero for a while.  Wrapping it in a tarp helps a lot I found. 

That was us last fall/winter. It went from around freezing temp to almost -40 in a few days and stayed for a week. Didn't matter what treatment we used everything would gel up. Had to leave the skid steer on the field till it warmed up a bit since I didnt feel like pumping out a tank full of fuel at -40 and lifting the cab to change filters

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Run straight # 2 year round. Never had an IH gel yet, and yes it can colder than a witches, well you know. Anyway, never had any issues with # 2 and an additive. Only thing that ever gives trouble is the inline fuel screens. Throw those suckers in the weeds and no more issues. Not sure why we need those anyway. Every Case skidsteer we ever had gelled the first time it got cold. Every one all we did was throw away the inline fuel filter (screen) and good to go. Something about that screen cold diesel will not go through it. Everything has fuel filters, why do we need those things? Our tractors don't have them. Anyway, no issues with straight # 2 and an anti gel and we have had -30 with a -50 wind chill here. Why anyone lives here I am not sure.:wacko:

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Our diesels are run from fuel at the local truck stop. Loves stays on top of the correct fuel and their price is good.  Murphy at Walmart is also good.

No fuel issues but we're  in an area where the coldest I have seen in the past 20 years was +5F and that was just a few hours.

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On 10/9/2019 at 10:15 PM, mader656 said:

Is number one fuel @3.50 a gallon, can't find it in red, really that much better in the winter than number 2 red fuel @2.35. Plus addative a penny or two a gallon...

For ease of winter start/ not gelling

 

Yes.  Additives added to winter no 2 only works down to about 0 degrees in our experience.  No 1 is more expensive but beats fighting gelled up equipment.  

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Before the days of electronics, one could safely run 5% gas in the winter to prevent jell.

Unsure if a person dare try that now?

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6 hours ago, Diesel Doctor said:

Before the days of electronics, one could safely run 5% gas in the winter to prevent jell.

Unsure if a person dare try that now?

For 15-20 years we have been using #2 fuel with recommended rate of power service. When it get to minus 15 or more we mix 3-5% gasoline in a full tank. As soon a the temperature gets to zero or better the tanks get topped off and a few days later topped off again. We run it in the 1066. 1466 and the Michigan L50  and Hough #60 wheel loaders. We also have shields on the tractors to keep engine heat in. The wheel loaders are some what enclosed.

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