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c1456

856 steering issue

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Actually the steering works fine at all times, whether in the field or going down the road.   The issue is that when driving it down the road in Hi 4th, I have to keep turning the wheel to the left to keep the tractor straight in the road.  Front end alignment is fine.  It just goes to the right unless you keep steading turning the wheel to the left.    In the field, I never notice it.   I've been around a few others that do this as well.  

Is this a problem with the steering hand valve???

 

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40 minutes ago, c1456 said:

Actually the steering works fine at all times, whether in the field or going down the road.   The issue is that when driving it down the road in Hi 4th, I have to keep turning the wheel to the left to keep the tractor straight in the road.  Front end alignment is fine.  It just goes to the right unless you keep steading turning the wheel to the left.    In the field, I never notice it.   I've been around a few others that do this as well.  

Is this a problem with the steering hand valve???

 

No I don’t think so. When jds do this it is o rings  in steering motor. But your 856 has the pilot valve by starter if you replace that with a known good one it eliminates that or look it over. Have only ever fixed 2 ihc motors many many jds. There are orings behind the sleeve on a ihc also

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I would check the steel hydraulic lines going to the front steering bloster for small leaks. It could be losing a little bit of pressure and leaking a small amount of oil. I had this on my 826 once

Erich

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Jack up the front end and see if it stays straight ahead.   This will tell you if pilot valve is not completely centered or if you have leakage in the front bolster.   If it does not move over extended period of time while steering it back and forth now and then, you can be sure it is the front axle pulling you one way.  The steering hand pump has some leakage in it so any pull on it will require constant correcting. 

IH released a different spring in the pilot valve and I installed a lot of them in 06 series tractors that really help over come the drift plus they steer much easier.  

You could also put a gauge in each line to front bolster and compare readings and they should be the same but gauges would have to be closely matched. 

I would bet you have more caster on one side of the front axle than other side.   

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This is common with hydrostatic steering. There is some leakage in the cylinder. Some in pilot valve. Some in hand pump. There is a spec for putting an inch pound torque wrench on nut in center of steering wheel. So many inch pounds for so long wheel slips so far. Sorry I don't remember the specs. The point is it's possible there is nothing wrong with tractor. If there is any crown in road. It puts more weight on right side tires and bearings. Making them roll harder. You then have to maintain pressure to left. Tire pressure, wheel bearings, caster and camber can all affect this. It can not be totally eliminated. How much is to much?

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If you have to turn the wheel to keep it straight there is something wrong. JD has almost the same steering motor except 2 pistons and no sleeve. . 4020 and such do this all the time. Replace blown oring in front they are good. Takes about 3 hours. I would start with your pilot valve though first. 

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2 hours ago, snoshoe said:

This is common with hydrostatic steering. There is some leakage in the cylinder. Some in pilot valve. Some in hand pump. There is a spec for putting an inch pound torque wrench on nut in center of steering wheel. So many inch pounds for so long wheel slips so far. Sorry I don't remember the specs. The point is it's possible there is nothing wrong with tractor. If there is any crown in road. It puts more weight on right side tires and bearings. Making them roll harder. You then have to maintain pressure to left. Tire pressure, wheel bearings, caster and camber can all affect this. It can not be totally eliminated. How much is to much?

If fully agree as  I was born with these tractors so to speak.   Lot of  complaints from first buyers especially when using a moldboard plow that was putting a bit of side draft on the tractor.  Like I said many times on this forum, IH released that special different spring in the pilot valve and it really did a good job of minimizing drift.  I don't know if the spring is still available or not but I put a lot of them in over the years.   It reduced the effort to move the pilot valve and also made steering those tractors more effortless all day long. 

I remember our IH service rep sitting on the tractor with his watch out checking for excessive leakage in systems.  They all had some and some more than others but well within specs.    Deere tractors whole different ball game as  I was  some what involved in them also later on in life. 

Another thing.  The latest hand pumps incorporated a (searching for correct word here) blade in the lobe on rotor to reduce the slippage .  Can't remember just which hand pumps that involved though.  

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33 minutes ago, pete23 said:

If fully agree as  I was born with these tractors so to speak.   Lot of  complaints from first buyers especially when using a moldboard plow that was putting a bit of side draft on the tractor.  Like I said many times on this forum, IH released that special different spring in the pilot valve and it really did a good job of minimizing drift.  I don't know if the spring is still available or not but I put a lot of them in over the years.   It reduced the effort to move the pilot valve and also made steering those tractors more effortless all day long. 

I remember our IH service rep sitting on the tractor with his watch out checking for excessive leakage in systems.  They all had some and some more than others but well within specs.    Deere tractors whole different ball game as  I was  some what involved in them also later on in life. 

Another thing.  The latest hand pumps incorporated a (searching for correct word here) blade in the lobe on rotor to reduce the slippage .  Can't remember just which hand pumps that involved though.  

The motor up front between a Deere or Ih is essentially the same. Deere uses to pistons one each side of gear, ih uses one piston with a sleeve in the cast with orings seals. I would agree pilot valve on ih tractor but have fixed many John Deere and the Deere had a monstrosity of a steering sector but it worked. If he is turning the wheel to keep up on the road he is losing oil someplace. Funny thing is ihc went to non pilot valve and John Deere went to pilot valve. Picture of the 2 JD on top Ih on bottom even on the ihc if it is sealed those orings are 50 years old around the sleeve. John Deere didn’t make it as long

EFBAA24A-B5C3-4639-9005-0F67400D79D3.png

22EDB344-167B-4342-905A-DD721C870FA5.png

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2 hours ago, dale560 said:

The motor up front between a Deere or Ih is essentially the same. Deere uses to pistons one each side of gear, ih uses one piston with a sleeve in the cast with orings seals. I would agree pilot valve on ih tractor but have fixed many John Deere and the Deere had a monstrosity of a steering sector but it worked. If he is turning the wheel to keep up on the road he is losing oil someplace. Funny thing is ihc went to non pilot valve and John Deere went to pilot valve. Picture of the 2 JD on top Ih on bottom even on the ihc if it is sealed those orings are 50 years old around the sleeve. John Deere didn’t make it as long

EFBAA24A-B5C3-4639-9005-0F67400D79D3.png

22EDB344-167B-4342-905A-DD721C870FA5.png

I agree he is losing oil someplace.  The thing is weather it is normal leakage or excessive as they all leak oil from day one.  That is what I was trying to explain with new tractors constantly having to turn the steering wheel when there was something causing them to pull to one side or the other like front axle problem, side draft or as mentioned, crown in the road.  

I had a couple Deere front cylinders apart also some years ago. 

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18 minutes ago, pete23 said:

I agree he is losing oil someplace.  The thing is weather it is normal leakage or excessive as they all leak oil from day one.  That is what I was trying to explain with new tractors constantly having to turn the steering wheel when there was something causing them to pull to one side or the other like front axle problem, side draft or as mentioned, crown in the road.  

I had a couple Deere front cylinders apart also some years ago. 

The Deere leaked more readily. They always blow one oring and wander just like  he describes. They always leak out those end plugs also.  Ihc didn’t have the oring problems and the hand pump seemed to last forever. Had many JD hand pumps apart also.  We have a 4430 jd. Bought it from case ih dealer as a junk tractor. Took motor out and had crank welded. When motor was out I rebuilt everything on front half of tractor. Steering motor  all pivots and tie rods only thing I didn’t was hyd pump. It was in desperate need of those steering o rings.  The late 4430 and other models have a feed back cylinder and one piston they will break the casting on end plugs on the 40 series. Just putting it out there a good possibility the bolster needs seals on that ihc. 50 years old and never fixed before and it will be the sleeve orings

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21 hours ago, pete23 said:

Jack up the front end and see if it stays straight ahead.   This will tell you if pilot valve is not completely centered or if you have leakage in the front bolster.   If it does not move over extended period of time while steering it back and forth now and then, you can be sure it is the front axle pulling you one way.  The steering hand pump has some leakage in it so any pull on it will require constant correcting. 

IH released a different spring in the pilot valve and I installed a lot of them in 06 series tractors that really help over come the drift plus they steer much easier.  

You could also put a gauge in each line to front bolster and compare readings and they should be the same but gauges would have to be closely matched. 

I would bet you have more caster on one side of the front axle than other side.   

X2 on the spring. There was a bulletin on it. Did my 706 and 806 and the steering correction pretty much went away and it steered better. The crazy thing is the new spring is a lot lighter duty than the original. 

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Years ago I studied into steering geometry somewhat due to a problem. When making a turn inner wheel is making a smaller circle and needs to turn a bit more. Stretch a sting from center of both front spindles, strings should intersect in center of tractor and center of rear axle. The eye of steering arms should be directly centered under string. Check it out, I have found many twisted spindles and incorrectly installed steering arms. 

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On 10/8/2019 at 4:48 PM, CIHTECH said:

Years ago I studied into steering geometry somewhat due to a problem. When making a turn inner wheel is making a smaller circle and needs to turn a bit more. Stretch a sting from center of both front spindles, strings should intersect in center of tractor and center of rear axle. The eye of steering arms should be directly centered under string. Check it out, I have found many twisted spindles and incorrectly installed steering arms. 

Trying to follow in my head how you tell us to use a string to check spindles etc and you lost me a little on your procedure. Care to help me understand? I'm slow..  thanks for your input 

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I believe CIHTECH is saying that if you stretch a string from dead center of rear axle (side to side & back to front)  to each front spindle center, the steering arms should be aligned under the string, with the hole centered on the string, when the front wheels are straight forward.  

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43 minutes ago, Jeff-C-IL said:

I believe CIHTECH is saying that if you stretch a string from dead center of rear axle (side to side & back to front)  to each front spindle center, the steering arms should be aligned under the string, with the hole centered on the string, when the front wheels are straight forward.  

Yes............I am poor with wording something correctly.

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