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ihc56fan

445 baler

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had problems last year. Twine discs were very worn so I put on new ones this spring.  When we figured out it was not cutting we tried a bigger knife. It would cut occationally  but not often.  I think ( I know dangerous) That the twine is not getting held in the right position.  Also when it cuts or pulls the twine there is a rats nest , like teasing hair on the back side of the disc.  Looking in the manual it looks like there is a spring to hold the disc closer together.  I have not adjusted this until I have an idea that it won't make it worse.  Any suggestions are welcome.   

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good question.  I don't know. I will post some pictures in the next day or so.  Thanks

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I'm pretty shure the 445 has the all twine knotter. While I don't have personal experience with this knotter. It is my understanding it works the same as the previous knotter with the exception of the moving twine knife. Parts are different but operates the same. With that assumption twine disk timing determines twine position when knfe swipe occurs. If twine disk timing is off you usually have failures of the disk to pick twine from needle. When the previous knotter failed to cut it was usually knife not sharp or not shimmed back far enough giving twine alonger stroke past knife. In this case after making shure knives are razor sharp. I would look for wear in cam or any lost motion in knife linkage. Possibly bent linkage or twisted knife shaft. In any event knife should travel well past string position when cutting.

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I would clean the bale chamber,  pull twines to imitate a bale and secure it with a bunge cord or have a helper keep it pulled to rear and then turn the baler through a tying cycle very slow.  Observe all functions, disc, needle has to just clear disc and touch knotter frame for stability, needle height past knotter, twine knife moving after bill hook has grabbed twine.  You will probably see the difference between working knotter and miss firing one.  

Disk timing is adjustable with nuts on end of drive.  

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The deering knotter is all together different from the mccormick knotter. The plus is any new holland or deere baler mechanic can help you out.

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Unfortunately a 445 baler has the opposite of whatever the New Hollands and Deeres have, so such mechanics are of no help unless they also have experience with the all twine.

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The all twine knotter is the second version of the m'cormick knotter.  Still cuts only only one twine and utilizes movement of bale to pull bow style (double diamet er knot) off the billhook .   Very similar knotters but uses a moving twine knife to cut twine after knot is formed on bill.  Cord holding disk is different also.   

Is not like Deering knotter that  was used on the 50T and knotters used on other brand balers.

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I have an International 445, wire baler and I can tell you right now that when it activates to tie the twine your not gonna see it. If you can film it and play it in slow motion you might see what's going on.

 

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1 hour ago, Jbyrd77 said:

I have an International 445, wire baler and I can tell you right now that when it activates to tie the twine your not gonna see it. If you can film it and play it in slow motion you might see what's going on.

 

That is why you turn it by hand to monitor each position.   Also, to see a complete knot still on the bill hook you stop feeding the baler, let it clear all material and then trip the head.  Shut everything off including the engine,  and take a look at the knot.  It will still be on the bill and you can see if end is cut clear among other things.    

You can watch some of the process during normal tying cycle but like you say, happens fast.  They upped the speed ratings to 75 strokes per minute so that increases their capacity rating.  I always feel that a max of 60 strokes gives you a much smoother operation on the balers  I worked on but have no idea what they are rated at now days. 

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15 minutes ago, pete23 said:

That is why you turn it by hand to monitor each position.   Also, to see a complete knot still on the bill hook you stop feeding the baler, let it clear all material and then trip the head.  Shut everything off including the engine,  and take a look at the knot.  It will still be on the bill and you can see if end is cut clear among other things.    

You can watch some of the process during normal tying cycle but like you say, happens fast.  They upped the speed ratings to 75 strokes per minute so that increases their capacity rating.  I always feel that a max of 60 strokes gives you a much smoother operation on the balers  I worked on but have no idea what they are rated at now days. 

Thanks for taking time to educate us on these old things Pete. I am of the group that the international baler isn’t the devils child. Some adj and cleaning they work to.

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I"ve always wondered about this, surely IH didn't keep the McCormick knotter and let the Deering knotter go for no reason, they must have kept the McCormick one for some reason, sure would like to have been in on that discussion.

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Just another bad decision by internationals management team. They thought the mccormick knotter was better because it had less parts.

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International was all about exclusive's just as companies are today. The McCormick knotter may have been

better but the patent had probably run out on the deering knotter which allowed everyone else to use it.

That McCormick knotter gave them something different than everyone else to sell.

Rumor was that John Deere tried to get IH to let them sell the fast hitch on there tractor's but IH

refused. We all know how that worked out with all other manufactures going with 3 point hitch.

But IH got to keep there exclusive hitch to sell.

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I am curious about the comment of putting a larger knife on the baler. What kind of knife did you

use?

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In both original and the all twine if the knife did not cut quickly and cleanly the knot would get pulled apart by the advancing bale and would not be tied at the end of the cycle. I don’t know if a larger knife would help but my experience was that knives had to be really sharp and the whole tying mechanism clean and free of bits of twine ,dirt etc. 

 

Both knotters were invented before IH existed. The “Deering” is actually the Appleby knotter invented by John Appleby in 1878. It was licensed to William Deering to use in the Deering Harvester Co. binder. it was also licensed to others and improved and fully implemented by Edwin Nolt in around 1938, Nolt was the father of the New Holland baler. The Appleby knotter was also used in John Deere binders which is where Nolt got the the device he incorporated in to his baler. The McCormick Reaper used a binding mechanism invented by Charles Withington around the same time as Appleby. This evolved into the McCormick knotter. As we know McCormick and Deering (along with others) came together to form IH and thus had both knotters that they could use. As Randy Hall said ; dropping the Deering knotter was not the best idea but IH felt it made a stronger knot as well and was pretty much an exclusive IH (McCormick) device.

I guess that’s  away from the topic but there’s a ton of great reading about the early history that became IH!

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Thanks for all of the ideas.  Making other adjustments probably won't and did not make it worse.  We think that the twine is either not held in the right path or not holding tight enough.. We tightened up the twine end retaining spring. to match the good knotter.  On this back side is where I get the rats nest like it is pulling the twine and not holding.  Waiting for some dry weather to cut and try again.  Going to empty chamber and run dry. Will try the bunge chord to replicate a bale.  Thanks

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A lot easier to adjust knotter in the yard. Just take 3 or 4 charges of hay and trip the knotters. One bale can give enough for 6  or more minni bales,keep running it back thru as many times as it takes. When it's time to bale you need to go not adjust. It has helped me to turn several cycles by hand with a helper so you can see. I don't remember if you have a book that gives species, but worth the money if your going to adjust them yourself.   

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And try different twine. My 440 came with sisal twine in it and would not tie on one side. I put some some round baler plastic twine in it and it hasn't missed a knot since.

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