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Restoring an H - need advise


eddie
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I have been using the forum a lot in the last week.  Very helpful information.

Is there any reason for me to break the tractor at the circled area?

I am down to the brakes and then I can start reassembling.  I am not sure if there is any seal or problem in this area.

Advise is greatly appreciated.

Inkedfarmall belly 2_LI.jpg

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No need to split. You can get at bearings or seals from the belly pump area as noted above. There's no gasket at the split.

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No need to split BUT, I would sure check the bolts that hold those two sections together.  Not unusual for them to be loose or even broken. Don't know if you have had the top cover off but plenty of things to check inside under that cover if you are restoring it. 

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Keep going and split it there.

Take it from a person who done it wrong.

You should remove everything from the transmission and differential.

Replace any bearings needed and all seals and gaskets,

I need to do the input shaft bearings on my H because I did not do it when I had the lid off before.

My BAD!

Take it from an idiot, do it right the first time.

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I will share a little info.  The tractor was outside its whole life.  Not well cared for.  Engine was shot.  drained 3 gallons of water from rearend.  Surprisingly, it was really clean when I pulled the PTO out.  Not planning on going in any further on transmission if I don't have to.

Got a new to me freshly overhauled engine for $350.  guy that had it took it out of a tractor that broke the transmission and scrapped the rest.  I would hate to put it all the way together and then find out there was something I missed like that guy did.  Overhaul then break...ouch.

I don't like leaks.  Is there a transmission input seal in the bell housing behind clutch forks?  Cannot tell.  No oil leaking, but then it has not run and was cleaned a bit.  Brake cross shaft and brake actuator seals are leaking, so I got them coming.

I have seen lots of posts on the brake shaft seals - use two seals and it would not leak.  cut rubber gaskets from innertube to keep leaks from splines from happening.  Seems like good advise.

What other excellent advice?  I have no time frame on this tractor.  If I am done in 2 years then I am ok.

Replacing clutch, pilot bearing and release bearing.  Having radiator checked.  Anything with the belly pump?  Completely foreign to me.  This is old school.  Planning to pull a v-rake with it at some point (if it can do it) so I will need single hydraulic.

 

 

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After dropping belly pump and clutch the input shaft assy can be removed for new seal and gaskets. The counter shaft also has a seal and gasket that requires removing pump coupler. I was originally instructed to do this with hammer and punch. It wasn't long and I had welded a 3/4 inch nut to an old m coupler and used an impact wrench. Made life easier. Still have same much borrowed tool. There is matching seal and coupler on belly pump.

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I completely went through my 3 H  and M tractors some years ago. The one H had a lot of water in housing and it had been sitting outside for over 15   years.  One of the teeth in a transmission gear had a bad chip out of a corner which exposed the internal metal and that corrosion completely ate out the inside of that tooth.  Just like a bad cavity in a tooth in   one's mouth.  Water will destroy the ball bearings just from sitting for extended period of time. 

I replaced several gears and all of the bearings in that one.  You won't know these things unless you tear it apart.  Holes in the bottom of the rear case due to failed bearing are not an easy repair. 

By the way, my brother in law broke the chain drive on his D John Deere and punched a big hole in the bottom so not just IH.  I personally had a B John Deere bust in half for me plowing when I was a youngster. Kind of ironic with all the IH tractors I repaired  over 50 some years of working on them that it was a John Deere that let the  oil out the bottom for me. 

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6 hours ago, eddie said:

I will share a little info.  The tractor was outside its whole life.  Not well cared for.  Engine was shot.  drained 3 gallons of water from rearend.  Surprisingly, it was really clean when I pulled the PTO out.  Not planning on going in any further on transmission if I don't have to.

Got a new to me freshly overhauled engine for $350.  guy that had it took it out of a tractor that broke the transmission and scrapped the rest.  I would hate to put it all the way together and then find out there was something I missed like that guy did.  Overhaul then break...ouch.

I don't like leaks.  Is there a transmission input seal in the bell housing behind clutch forks?  Cannot tell.  No oil leaking, but then it has not run and was cleaned a bit.  Brake cross shaft and brake actuator seals are leaking, so I got them coming.

I have seen lots of posts on the brake shaft seals - use two seals and it would not leak.  cut rubber gaskets from innertube to keep leaks from splines from happening.  Seems like good advise.

What other excellent advice?  I have no time frame on this tractor.  If I am done in 2 years then I am ok.

Replacing clutch, pilot bearing and release bearing.  Having radiator checked.  Anything with the belly pump?  Completely foreign to me.  This is old school.  Planning to pull a v-rake with it at some point (if it can do it) so I will need single hydraulic.

 

 

I had an M years back that had water in rear end. It had froze and cracked the rear housing right under bull gear. It got fixed with JB Weld. Best wishes

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58 minutes ago, pete23 said:

 

 I personally had a B John Deere bust in half for me plowing when I was a youngster. Kind of ironic with all the IH tractors I repaired  over 50 some years of working on them that it was a John Deere that let the  oil out the bottom for me. 

Where abouts did the B break apart?  Somebody posted pictures here a year ago of a hopped-up G that blew apart where the block bolted to the crankcase at a tractor pull.

Dad bought a '40  styled B to narrow up and pull a manure spreader thru the hog finishing barn,  was $90 at an auction 20-25 miles from home a week before Christmas. Driving it home wasn't an option.  Center aisle of the barn was about 68 inches wide and 60+/- feet long.  The '39 Farmall H did have the rear wheels dished in to fit and Dad welded six tabs to bolt to the cast centers set so the tractor was narrow enough with rear wheels dished out.  He didn't want to modify the Super H.  That '40 B was a pretty crude machine to spend any time on.  No lights, or hydraulics, Armstrong Start, Armstrong power steering,  4 speed, so 4-1/2 mph "RoadGear".  Could not imagine plowing with a B.  I tried raking hay with it ONCE. No starter & lights meant no radio! Had to have my tunes!  It would start if you let it set for a month,  put it on something that you needed daily like the water wagon to haul water to the hogs in the pastures it refused to start.

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Make sure you check the amount of movement in the bull shafts while you have the brakes apart. My W4 had leaking seals and after replacing the seals leaked oil through the brakes again after a very short time. When I looked further it had a bearing failing on the bull shaft. I had to rebuild the transmission and back end but got lucky as there was no damage. I never did find the cage out of this bearing but all the balls were still there.1072587460_W4transbearingsSeptember2017(10).jpg.90d43e422b1133f3c53f742fb1862245.jpg

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2130052235_Phone20-10-171467.thumb.jpg.fcd12f17034f0ee05d641cb9f6d93f6d.jpg

 

Marty,NZ 

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The model B Deere broke between engine and transmission.  Don't recall exactly as that was in the early 50's in high school on a FFA school plot.  It didn't hit the ground but sure let the transmission gear lube out in a hurry.   Deere dealer let us use a  new 50 to then.  

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11 hours ago, Martin Thompson said:

Make sure you check the amount of movement in the bull shafts while you have the brakes apart. My W4 had leaking seals and after replacing the seals leaked oil through the brakes again after a very short time. When I looked further it had a bearing failing on the bull shaft. I had to rebuild the transmission and back end but got lucky as there was no damage. I never did find the cage out of this bearing but all the balls were still there.1072587460_W4transbearingsSeptember2017(10).jpg.90d43e422b1133f3c53f742fb1862245.jpg

1290952255_Phone20-10-171464.thumb.jpg.ef9dac3625c9c68fbf83ab66a82ab998.jpg

2130052235_Phone20-10-171467.thumb.jpg.fcd12f17034f0ee05d641cb9f6d93f6d.jpg

 

Marty,NZ 

Good advise.....I would hate to lose my balls......just sayin.

 

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17 hours ago, Worth Co. farmer said:

I had an M years back that had water in rear end. It had froze and cracked the rear housing right under bull gear. It got fixed with JB Weld. Best wishes

One might think this would  be the case that it would crack, but I see no evidence so far.  With all the water in the rearend when I drained it - if there was a leak it would have drained itself.  Lots of good advice on this issue.  Thanks!

 

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If you are this far are into the tear down and are considering changing seals I would recommend committing to it or let it ride as is. From experience in changing one or two seals, the others start leaking and you end up cursing yourself. We are currently going through the transmission in an O4, that needs almost every bearing. There was enough wear that all of the oil passages in the castings were plugged with debris. I personally do not recommend flushing these old transmissions without opening them up. flushing will deposit all of the debris right into your bearings. The pic of the chewed up bearing is an example of a failure you cant see or feel. That bearing was tight and rolled with the pinion without any noise.

You are correct that you can add two seals on the bull pinion's. But, if the bearings are worn and the shaft has play, you are wasting your money. 

We bought a parts H earlier this summer, gutted the transmission and ended up with about half of the bearings we needed. There are a-lot of rear ends for sale dirt cheap, salvaging one or two good bearing will easily save you a hundred bucks.

I just sourced all federal mogul seals from advanced auto (there website recognizes the FM part numbers) for $120 with a 20% off coupon shipped to me. 

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