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Coytee

540 vs 1000 PTO

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I have not twisted the shaft off our MX 270 yet and we plant corn with a 1200 12 row and the pump bolts to a plate made by pump doctor. It's rigid 

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now wait a minute you have a cobbled up mower contraption of some sort with a pump on it and having issues and you are saying you dont want to spend 15K on a batwing? it doesnt sound like you would buy a 15K batwing it sounds like you would buy a 3K dollar batwing ( like me ) - which would be a VAST improvement over this setup - you can get descent batwings that are VERY reliable even when well used and not have to be replacing PTO shafts either, be broken down, frustrated and typing umpteen messages on here to figure out what went wrong, there is something to be said about being wise enough to cut your losses and move on. 

This seems like one of those times to me - but then again i have made a lot of mistakes in my years and had to cry uncle and move on, my buddy and i currently have two beat up old rhino mowers we use to cut tons of sapling trees with in CRP growth we take care of and we have never broken a pto shaft on a tractor - i think these guys are right, you need to head in a different direction unless you just like to work on stuff and repair things and type on the computer to us 😉

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I’m betting on an alignment problem. Even a 540 is going to make a 1066 work pretty hard and for quite a while before the PTO stub would fail from torque load. I’ve seen small 1000 adapter on a big 1000 stub survive behind a 200 hp tractor. 

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What most of us are trying to tell you is we do not think torque is twisting it off. A small misalignment puts a slight bend in shaft. Rotating shaft causes that bend to continue to change direction. Think of bending a wire back and forth. The harder the shaft the quicker it happens.

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15 minutes ago, searcyfarms said:

now wait a minute you have a cobbled up mower contraption of some sort with a pump on it and having issues and you are saying you dont want to spend 15K on a batwing?

Interesting.

This is a factory made mower.  Factory made pump.  Factory made speed increaser.  The factory will sell you a flat piece of steel that you then cobble to your tractor (so there IS a step of cobbling)  Otherwise, this is something you could have (30 years ago) walked into the store and purchased for ??? 10,000 / 15,000???  This came from the local airport and they used it for their green space.

It's not some garage built contraption (well, it MIGHT be a contraption! :unsure:) of disjointed parts but it's not garage built.

And yes....  if I can find a solution that is for example $3,000 instead of $15,000....  there will be some hiccups (like replacing a tire early).  I'm PERFECTLY happy to look for values like that.  My pockets have a bottom to them that is within my reach.

Now, if this thing proves (and it's about 80% the way there now) that it's just going to be a dud for me then I'll regroup.  Only real loss I've had is some time and learning quite expertly how to replace the 540!  :D

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ive got some old stuff that was marginal when manufactured and wasnt great for all tractors/applications so that is what i mean by cobbled, not that the machine itself is a cobbled junker per say but you have to cobble/adapt/be creative/ for it to fit the application/tractor it was not specifically designed for, i have seen things work great on one setup and not on another - this happens a lot with skid steer stuff ( in my experience ) and different designs/fabrications skillsets and trying to make something TRULY universal. My biggest issue with those has been fittings/hoses/placement/length/brackets that get in the way/same thing you are trying to get your setup to work 

i will say this also, every time you stress your tractor drivetrain by twisting off a pto shaft there are other things taking a hit inside that are being stressed too and this might not show up now but i can guarantee its not good on the rest of your tractor - it may not be just the pto shaft that is breaking next time - but heck thats how you learn..........by stretching those pockets 😉 mine are limited too that is why i dont press my luck, i tried that a time or two over the years as well - and i now have a 3K dollar mower - i dont want to take a 15K one out in the crap i mow either, it would look like a demo derby car after the first day

 

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Coytee said:

Don't know if you were being rhetorical....

Keep in mind that between the pump and tractor is a 4x speed increaser that takes the 540 and increases it up to 2,160 when at PTO speed.  The pump then gets mounted to that side of the assembly.

So if my thinking is right, we're starting off with four times the stress on the system however, that might be an incorrect way for me to conceptualize it.

Now I get it. Hydraulic pump is running at 2100 rpm sitting of to side or underneath pto. My guess is your hitting something with blades and the relief valves in pump aren’t giving up. If this is hanging off to side or underneath pto. ( pump input not straight inline with pto, pump not speed increaser ) you will have a tremoundous amount of force to twist pto shaft. If you try and run a hay grinder with a 1000 rpm big to small reducer you will twist them off where the pto lock recess is. 

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We twisted a 1000 big to small adapter on our 8950 Magnum on a Gehl 800 grinder blower doing shelled corn. It twisted approximately 1/2" long section 30° 

We were lucky to have the tractor stall before it twisted off and made itself into a projectile

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Please post pictures of the set up and of the failed PTO shafts.  

While you are good at describing things, what we may see in the pictures are things that you may overlook.

i would agree somewhat with Dale.  If the shaft is failing from a torque load I wonder if there is a relief valve stuck causing shock loads on the shaft.  Could be alignment, but I believe you would have pretty violent vibrations before failure.

a video of it running at idle and up to speed, even if not cutting would help as well.

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I have been staying out of this conversation but have to say, if that 10 is anywhere near using rated horse power on a continuous basis, that 540 shaft does not stand a chance.  OH I know, many are using them at full horse power, but I am the guy that had to replace those busted shafts and try to convince the customer it was not a FLAW in the shaft that caused the problem. 

Ever see a pto shaft fly across the lot when running on a dynamometer.  Gets scary. 

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I still can't see how a shock load would be that great to snap that shaft.First it is a hyd.driven machine,that itself in its design allows for the shock to be absorbed by the fluid drive train.Those motors will hit something and in a millsecond that load transferred to the drive train (oil) and cushioned.i also think you would crack the pump first.You also have the stump jumpers or blade bar acting like a fly wheel and taking a ton of load and impact there.That is why you don't really need a big hammer to run a big batwing .I ran my 15' with a 80 hp IH in weeds as high as front of tracor with zero problems.i also believe Alamo made this,designed this to work because this is not the first hyd driven batwing I heard of. I had  neighbor a few miles off had a Alamo bat wing mower ,never took much notice to it but it was HYD driven because I hauled his 706 when he had engine work done on it and had to unhook it in the field.I still say the way it is mounted to that tractor,never heard him complain about the mower.That PTO shaft should absolutely, positively be basically centered so hypothetically it will hover or float inside that female coupling.I mean no side to side load or top to bottom load .You have the drive and suction hoses I imagine coming in, they can't bind or twist either.The other thing when they broke was it on a turn ,straight or what. That will tell you something.

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1 hour ago, pete23 said:

I have been staying out of this conversation but have to say, if that 10 is anywhere near using rated horse power on a continuous basis, that 540 shaft does not stand a chance.  OH I know, many are using them at full horse power, but I am the guy that had to replace those busted shafts and try to convince the customer it was not a FLAW in the shaft that caused the problem. 

Ever see a pto shaft fly across the lot when running on a dynamometer.  Gets scary. 

X 2

I have replaced many because 4 of the 5 manaur pumps we have are 540. The 5th one we converted to 1000

We have much less problem with the 1000 one and it's an 8" pump where all the other ones are 6"

2 of the three pits we have you can not maintain full PTO speed as a 1066 doesn't have enough horsepower

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Are the gears in the speed increaser immersed in oil? Drain the oil and look for metal particles. Inspect gears in speed increaser.  I assume the pump is a gear pump. If the suction hose inlet is aligned with the gears, take the suction hose off and use a flash light to inspect the gears. Is there an inlet screen on suction side of pump? Maybe built inside tank? Make sure suction screen is clean. Drain oil tank and use a magnet to look for metal particles. Mowing the grass at an airport every two weeks for decades, the entire drive trane on that mower is wore out! I would suspect gears catching and shearing the pto. Get a good used bat wing and let someone else hold that thing.

good luck and keep us posted.

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3 hours ago, pete23 said:

I have been staying out of this conversation but have to say, if that 10 is anywhere near using rated horse power on a continuous basis, that 540 shaft does not stand a chance.  OH I know, many are using them at full horse power, but I am the guy that had to replace those busted shafts and try to convince the customer it was not a FLAW in the shaft that caused the problem. 

Ever see a pto shaft fly across the lot when running on a dynamometer.  Gets scary. 

My buddy was grinding hay with a hay buster grinder using a old 7520 John Deere. He run a slug in broke a u joint and  the pto shaft off the tractor and it went flying into hay pile starting a small fire

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4 hours ago, dale560 said:

My buddy was grinding hay with a hay buster grinder using a old 7520 John Deere. He run a slug in broke a u joint and  the pto shaft off the tractor and it went flying into hay pile starting a small fire

We had something similar happen to our JD 38 chopper when we had it. Dad was chopping corn behind the 986. I was following with a empty wagon with the 460. When that cross let go the back half of that shaft went flying and actually crossed the path of the tractor i was driving. 

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Reading through this I have been suspecting a stuck pressure relief valve, but the comments about worn gears in the pump and/or the speed increaser gearbox hold merit too!

Have you ever observed a pressure relief valve operating moment with this machine?  I would compare it to my experience with a non-hydraulic drive 20’ batwing mower that the slip clutch rusted fast on and would not slip, tearing it up.

Without a slip clutch/pressure relief valve the next weakest link has to fail.  In this case it is your 540 shaft.

Do you have instructions for adjusting/setting the pressure relief valve?  Is there a pressure gauge on the mower?

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gears can bind and be explosive, we had a divider gearbox on a batwing explode - it sounded like a bomb went off, shook the entire tractor and the mower lifted - it blew out the case and parts went all over - wear in a gearbox will lock up, had this with a tiller gearbox also and when it broke, it was loud and almost stalled the tractor - luckily it broke the gears in the gearbox and didnt break the pto 

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The old soft core balers ran a shear bolt on the pto driveline. It was a 5/16 bolt on the gear case output shaft on the case ih balers. When you snapped that little bolt you heard it in the cab. Dads vicon baler had a shear bolt on pto shaft it didn’t nearly bang as hard

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