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vtfireman85

Roundup opinions

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6 minutes ago, oldtanker said:

No, not at all. People accept that certain things have to be used. A vehicle for example. What they don't accept is the use of a potentially (in their eyes) dangerous chemical when there are other options. And there is the issue. Because of other options the city then fails to meet it's "duties". When there are miles of roads to clear, ditches to mow and such no one expects you not to use a vehicle. No one has to use Roundup. Seth even stated it would be in an attempt to save money and make things easier to maintain. No where did he say they have no other options.

And pro Roundup users forcing it others is not going to win this fight. That makes them look at you as an enemy and threat. That means they are going to fight back harder.

Look, I'm neither for or against Roundup. I will not say it's safe nor will I say used correctly that it's dangerous. Right now they are losing in court. In a big way. Using it where the general public may be exposed is where the potential problems lie. Heck here in rural MN if the city of Battle Lake got caught using roundup I know at least one guy and his wife who would sue to make em stop using it.

 

Rick 

 

Don’t slap me down, but what I’m reading in this post and your other replies is - don’t go there, don’t use roundup (even though you say you’re neutral).  IMHO part of the transformation of this country is that for to long decent, hardworking, responsible people have, in their want not to be controversial and a want to be tolerant and accepting, have not drawn a line in the sand and if these same folks don’t begin to speak out and challenge, we/they are going to loose their country forever.  I say hold your ground to using roundup.  If the law suit comes, then you can consider fighting or settling at that point in time, but at least make them take the next step instead of preemptively surrendering.

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if we were to use it , we would be hiring a certified applicator, presumably its up to them to follow label instructions

 

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43 minutes ago, leeave96 said:

Don’t slap me down, but what I’m reading in this post and your other replies is - don’t go there, don’t use roundup (even though you say you’re neutral).  IMHO part of the transformation of this country is that for to long decent, hardworking, responsible people have, in their want not to be controversial and a want to be tolerant and accepting, have not drawn a line in the sand and if these same folks don’t begin to speak out and challenge, we/they are going to loose their country forever.  I say hold your ground to using roundup.  If the law suit comes, then you can consider fighting or settling at that point in time, but at least make them take the next step instead of preemptively surrendering.

Look, I'm not slapping anyone down. What I'm saying is don't use roundup on public grounds where the general population and their pets may come in contact with it. You want to spray your fields? Fine go for it. But public grounds is more or less forcing people who don't like it to be exposed against their will. And all it takes is one suing over it to be a nightmare for the town. I mentioned Battle Lake. The town is so broke right now that if sued for anything it would be a real issue.

And no, the folks who don't like or trust roundup are not going to become converts because you exposed them to it. They will get angry and be demanding that their elected representatives outlaw it. There are about 3.5 million farmers. Not all use or like Roundup. There are well over 320,000,000 people in the US. Most folks don't use it. GMOs in general and Roundup specifically have gotten a lot of bad press over the last 10-15 years. So when it comes right down to how do you think the politicians are going to vote if it comes to that?

And that's basically the point I'm trying to make. Forcing people to be exposed to it using it on public property will 1: subject the using agency to legal action and 2: be counter productive to farmers.

 

Rick 

 

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29 minutes ago, vtfireman85 said:

if we were to use it , we would be hiring a certified applicator, presumably its up to them to follow label instructions

 

And any and all liability would be on them.

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4 minutes ago, oldtanker said:

Look, I'm not slapping anyone down. What I'm saying is don't use roundup on public grounds where the general population and their pets may come in contact with it. You want to spray your fields? Fine go for it. But public grounds is more or less forcing people who don't like it to be exposed against their will. And all it takes is one suing over it to be a nightmare for the town. I mentioned Battle Lake. The town is so broke right now that if sued for anything it would be a real issue.

And no, the folks who don't like or trust roundup are not going to become converts because you exposed them to it. They will get angry and be demanding that their elected representatives outlaw it. There are about 3.5 million farmers. Not all use or like Roundup. There are well over 320,000,000 people in the US. Most folks don't use it. GMOs in general and Roundup specifically have gotten a lot of bad press over the last 10-15 years. So when it comes right down to how do you think the politicians are going to vote if it comes to that?

And that's basically the point I'm trying to make. Forcing people to be exposed to it using it on public property will 1: subject the using agency to legal action and 2: be counter productive to farmers.

 

Rick 

 

They would not be being exposed to it against their will. If they choose to walk where it has been applied and the proper re entry posting have been done that is their problem.

There is nothing illegal about using it or any other chemical when following a label. Roundup and its generics are still not a restricted use product and anyone can use it. I forsee that changing soon because of the misinformation and misuse. I would bet that fella in California did not follow the label when it comes to PPE and cleanup. Yes a precedence has been set by a lawsuit victory(temporary maybe?) Monsanto(Bayer) has deep pockets. Many companies produce the generic version and are not small players in the business. The battle over whether it is a carcinogen will go on for many years...

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14 minutes ago, new guy said:

They would not be being exposed to it against their will. If they choose to walk where it has been applied and the proper re entry posting have been done that is their problem.

There is nothing illegal about using it or any other chemical when following a label. Roundup and its generics are still not a restricted use product and anyone can use it. I forsee that changing soon because of the misinformation and misuse. I would bet that fella in California did not follow the label when it comes to PPE and cleanup. Yes a precedence has been set by a lawsuit victory(temporary maybe?) Monsanto(Bayer) has deep pockets. Many companies produce the generic version and are not small players in the business. The battle over whether it is a carcinogen will go on for many years...

If it's used on public grounds and the area is not barricaded the courts have in the past and will in the future agree that people were exposed to whatever it was were exposed against their will. That means barricades, signs and in public places? A public notice in compliance with applicable laws announcing what is going to be used, where and when prior to application. 

That's why I'm telling Seth that he needs to talk to the towns legal representation prior to using it. That protects Seth and the town. Just bulling ahead and he may get away with it. Then again he may not. 

And yea, there are laws against exposing people to chemicals without due public notice before hand. So even though Roundup is legal to use you still have other laws governing actions. And again, my only concern here is making sure that Seth is covered and that he doesn't expose his town to a possible legal fight they may not be able to win. Heck Organic farmers have sued neighbors and won because chemical have drifted in and damaged or destroyed crops making that ground no good for organic crops for several years. I don't like how sue happy we have become. But it's just the way things are. 

LOL BIL drives school bus. Last year a parent tried to sue him cause he told a kid to sit down. I know the parents. They were hoping the school would just pay them off. But tort law has gotten out of hand IMO.

Rick

 

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2 hours ago, vtfireman85 said:

if we were to use it , we would be hiring a certified applicator, presumably its up to them to follow label instructions

 

 

1 hour ago, new guy said:

And any and all liability would be on them.

With the right attorney, I wouldn’t bet the farm on it.

With that being said, cover your a** with paperwork.

Document everything and who is applying “it “( whatever “it” might be)

Better yet, use generic names so as not create hysteria.

Create procedural documents, timeline of when to apply, when not to apply, etc.

I would think by going off similar documents, perhaps used by the railway would give you ample coverage if something was to occur.

Contact landowners IF and only IF there is any application being on private property!

My 2 cents.

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2 minutes ago, Ihfan4life said:

 

With the right attorney, I wouldn’t bet the farm on it.

With that being said, cover your a** with paperwork.

Document everything and who is applying “it “( whatever “it” might be)

Better yet, use generic names so as not create hysteria.

Create procedural documents, timeline of when to apply, when not to apply, etc.

I would think by going off similar documents, perhaps used by the railway would give you ample coverage if something was to occur.

Contact landowners IF and only IF there is any application being on private property!

My 2 cents.

Yep, "sit domino respondere" is the legal term. Let the master answer. Means he can hire it done but but the responsibility and liability rests on the city as he would be acting as an agent for the city. Yea a good portion of the liability could be passed onto the applicator IF AND ONLY IF they don't follow handling/application instructions or violate the terms of a contract. If the city fails to supervise/monitor, make public notices/barricades ECT. they will still be partially to fully responsible.

 

Rick

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1 hour ago, oldtanker said:

If it's used on public grounds and the area is not barricaded the courts have in the past and will in the future agree that people were exposed to whatever it was were exposed against their will. That means barricades, signs and in public places? A public notice in compliance with applicable laws announcing what is going to be used, where and when prior to application. 

That's why I'm telling Seth that he needs to talk to the towns legal representation prior to using it. That protects Seth and the town. Just bulling ahead and he may get away with it. Then again he may not. 

And yea, there are laws against exposing people to chemicals without due public notice before hand. So even though Roundup is legal to use you still have other laws governing actions. And again, my only concern here is making sure that Seth is covered and that he doesn't expose his town to a possible legal fight they may not be able to win. Heck Organic farmers have sued neighbors and won because chemical have drifted in and damaged or destroyed crops making that ground no good for organic crops for several years. I don't like how sue happy we have become. But it's just the way things are. 

LOL BIL drives school bus. Last year a parent tried to sue him cause he told a kid to sit down. I know the parents. They were hoping the school would just pay them off. But tort law has gotten out of hand IMO.

Rick

 

Ok. Lets sue every fast food chain for the high temp fry oil. Lets sue the power companies for the creosote they use on the posts. Lets sue the state for all the fossil fuel burning vehicles. 

Rick, explain to everyone what the lawsuit is about with Monsanto(Bayer). All this talk about everyone getting sued over the labeled using of the product. Maybe you can give us a lengthy explanation of what the lawsuit is actually about and how it actually relates to the situation. I dont believe it has anything to do with the use of it. 

I am not a fan or supporter of Monsanto(Bayer ) in any way. I do use some of their products. I am not a fan of all these lawsuits over every little thing that may or may not have hurt you. I think the time and money spent in court could be used in a more productive way such as more independent research.

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4 hours ago, vtfireman85 said:

if we were to use it , we would be hiring a certified applicator, presumably its up to them to follow label instructions

 

I wouldn't hesitate to get-r-done

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1 hour ago, new guy said:

Ok. Lets sue every fast food chain for the high temp fry oil. Lets sue the power companies for the creosote they use on the posts. Lets sue the state for all the fossil fuel burning vehicles. 

Rick, explain to everyone what the lawsuit is about with Monsanto(Bayer). All this talk about everyone getting sued over the labeled using of the product. Maybe you can give us a lengthy explanation of what the lawsuit is actually about and how it actually relates to the situation. I dont believe it has anything to do with the use of it. 

I am not a fan or supporter of Monsanto(Bayer ) in any way. I do use some of their products. I am not a fan of all these lawsuits over every little thing that may or may not have hurt you. I think the time and money spent in court could be used in a more productive way such as more independent research.

Look, I'm not explaining away lawsuits. I just trying to protect Seth's city from a potential lawsuit. And the problem isn't using Roundup or a generic version of it. The problem is the legal system and the idiots who sue over anything. And for what it's worth? The fast food chains have been sued over oil temps as have the power companies over the creosote. And yes, some have even attempted to sue over IC engines in government vehicles.

Now I do know that many states have a requirement that "any government agency" spraying some type of chemical has to post public notices prior to application. Some even require and environmental impact statement prior to using anything. Lot of times that's just a formality but it still has to be done in some states. Heck MN DNR has to do that to spray for skeeters, both the environmental impact statement and the public notice. And here in MN it's just a small notice in news papers, and limited stuff on the radio and TV. Most often the TV and radio thing is done as a press release so it costs nothing. It's not about Bayer or Monsanto. It's about responsibility to the general public. And all I did was tell him to talk to the city attorney to make sure he covers all his bases.

I really hate to think about all this garbage government agencies have to go through that don't accomplish anything except to waste tax payer's money. Hate the stupid rules too.

And that's all I'm trying to do. I don't think we have many lawyers here. And even fewer lawyers familiar with VT state law. Sorry but this is a poor venue to be asking legal advice from. That's why I keep saying the same thing. Seth needs to consult whoever represents his city. If the lawyer says go for it then go for it. But if there is anything that needs to be done before hand then he's covered. Simple phone call should take care of it.

Rick 

 

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Reading this post just makes me shake my head.

If its that big of a deal about using any herbicide to kill off the grass and weeds. I hate to say it. Just let the damn stuff grow up. Either people will allow you to do it or it grows up. Is it unsightly, Yeah, but your covered. 

If their is nothing their to protect the town or township from that type of liability by using a labeled, approved rate. Then there's nothing you can do about it. 

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16 minutes ago, Reichow7120 said:

Reading this post just makes me shake my head.

If its that big of a deal about using any herbicide to kill off the grass and weeds. I hate to say it. Just let the damn stuff grow up. Either people will allow you to do it or it grows up. Is it unsightly, Yeah, but your covered. 

If their is nothing their to protect the town or township from that type of liability by using a labeled, approved rate. Then there's nothing you can do about it. 

Guys it ain't over personal use. Whole different ball game when it's a government agency though. 

 

Rick

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Just now, oldtanker said:

Guys it ain't over personal use. Whole different ball game when it's a government agency though. 

 

Rick

I know, that's why I say do nothing if it's going to be a problem.

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our town isn't suit happy, there are certainly some way left, and certainly some far right, I myself am not much interested in doing something that's going to cause issues own the road. I guess where I was going with this is that you guys out there probably have much more experience than I do in this product. MANY products that are used without proper PPE will do lasting health damage. sheetrock is relatively harmless, however if you take care to read the label it says to wear a mask when working with the stuff. I have little doubt that if applied and failing to heed instructions the stuff can have negative effects. im not well versed enough with roundup to know what happens after its applied and dried, I see where rick is coming from in his CYA attitude about it, and I definitely am taking that into account however CYA aside, we as a board have a responsibility to our town to create a safe environment and spend money as sensibly and judiciously as possible. to me if the stuff is safe if applied properly and increases visibility and reduces maintenance costs it makes sense, if the general consensus is that its really sketchy stuff that runs into streams and create 3 headed fish, well then perhaps its worth reconsidering howe were approaching guardrail  and hydrant maintenance. 

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Seth,

Two ideas come to mind:

1.  Steam sterilization of the soil

2.  Flux Capacitor backed up with 88 gigawatts!!

Edited by 1586 Jeff
Spelling. Durned spellchecker!!

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2 hours ago, vtfireman85 said:

our town isn't suit happy, there are certainly some way left, and certainly some far right, I myself am not much interested in doing something that's going to cause issues own the road. I guess where I was going with this is that you guys out there probably have much more experience than I do in this product. MANY products that are used without proper PPE will do lasting health damage. sheetrock is relatively harmless, however if you take care to read the label it says to wear a mask when working with the stuff. I have little doubt that if applied and failing to heed instructions the stuff can have negative effects. im not well versed enough with roundup to know what happens after its applied and dried, I see where rick is coming from in his CYA attitude about it, and I definitely am taking that into account however CYA aside, we as a board have a responsibility to our town to create a safe environment and spend money as sensibly and judiciously as possible. to me if the stuff is safe if applied properly and increases visibility and reduces maintenance costs it makes sense, if the general consensus is that its really sketchy stuff that runs into streams and create 3 headed fish, well then perhaps its worth reconsidering howe were approaching guardrail  and hydrant maintenance. 

It is used on millions of acres of crops every year. It is used around turf and ornamentals. I use it in the flower beds for petes sake. It works on the plant you spray it on. It is not a volatile chemical that will move after application like some others. It is not a soil sterilant. It will work on what is up. It wont stop new weeds from germinating. It will kill grass nicely. Do you want to kill the grass. It is less effective on broadleaves. It is worthless for brushy species. You will need to add something different to control those species. 

If you have questions talk to someone from the state ag extension office and explain what your goals are and what is the best way to apply it.

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You drink all that Rainer in one sitting?   This is the #1 silly post on here.  Spray...its legal....0 proof of harm.  Did someone thibk the govt pension guy was going to not know everything about glypho?  Keep quiet and just get it done.  

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8 hours ago, new guy said:

It is used on millions of acres of crops every year. It is used around turf and ornamentals. I use it in the flower beds for petes sake. It works on the plant you spray it on. It is not a volatile chemical that will move after application like some others. It is not a soil sterilant. It will work on what is up. It wont stop new weeds from germinating. It will kill grass nicely. Do you want to kill the grass. It is less effective on broadleaves. It is worthless for brushy species. You will need to add something different to control those species. 

If you have questions talk to someone from the state ag extension office and explain what your goals are and what is the best way to apply it.

Yep, use on millions of acres that the average person, their kids and their pets will never walk on.

I know they claim it's used on turf and ornamentals but I don't know of a single person who uses it. 

I know lots of people with flowerbeds who only use conventional weed control (pulling them), you are the first I've ever talked to who uses it in flowerbeds.

Heck if I was so against roundup I wouldn't let my nephew use it here on my land. He sprayed 30 acres of beans a few weeks back. 

Seth is talking about using it as a government agency where people, kids and pets may be exposed. Not in some farm field 20 miles away.

Rick

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13 hours ago, oldtanker said:

Yep, use on millions of acres that the average person, their kids and their pets will never walk on.

I know they claim it's used on turf and ornamentals but I don't know of a single person who uses it. 

I know lots of people with flowerbeds who only use conventional weed control (pulling them), you are the first I've ever talked to who uses it in flowerbeds.

Heck if I was so against roundup I wouldn't let my nephew use it here on my land. He sprayed 30 acres of beans a few weeks back. 

Seth is talking about using it as a government agency where people, kids and pets may be exposed. Not in some farm field 20 miles away.

Rick

He is using it around guard rails and dry hydrants. Not exactly the path thru the middle of the park!  Someone will complain about using it. Someone will complain about not using it. Someone will complain about spending too much money hiring someone to trim all of it. Roundup is not illegal to use as long as you follow the most current label. Those that dont like it can pull their bottom lip up over their head and swallow....

No way in he!l would i pull weeds by hand. I put down a thick layer of mulch. The only thing that pushes thru are dandelions and thistle. Hand sprayer and low pressure with a batch of glyphosate in it. Dribble a little on and the weed dies. Do it right up under the rose bushes and it never bothers. I have used it next to tomato plants with no problems. If a tomato plant doesnt die from it being used nearby i would say it is a pretty stable chemical...

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3 minutes ago, new guy said:

He is using it around guard rails and dry hydrants. Not exactly the path thru the middle of the park!  Someone will complain about using it. Someone will complain about not using it. Someone will complain about spending too much money hiring someone to trim all of it. Roundup is not illegal to use as long as you follow the most current label. Those that dont like it can pull their bottom lip up over their head and swallow....

No way in he!l would i pull weeds by hand. I put down a thick layer of mulch. The only thing that pushes thru are dandelions and thistle. Hand sprayer and low pressure with a batch of glyphosate in it. Dribble a little on and the weed dies. Do it right up under the rose bushes and it never bothers. I have used it next to tomato plants with no problems. If a tomato plant doesnt die from it being used nearby i would say it is a pretty stable chemical...

Hey like I say I'm not saying don't use it. I'm saying that before using it as a municipality they should check with the city lawyer to make sure they are doing that CYA thing. 

Rick

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Nothing against Roundup but if any of the guiderail is near banks on roadsides or places where there is runoff I would go with mowing or weed whacking.  NOT because of the chemicals, but because of runoff eroding soil away from the lack of root matter.  We have in the township I work for places where people spray banks along roads and then their banks giveaway, (from lack of root matter holding them together).  The unsupported soil then washes into our ditches and culvert boxes blocking them and forcing water onto our roads and causing road edges to be compromised or undermined.  My job is easier mowing than fixing washouts or other runoff issues from soil that has no root matter to hold it together.  

 

Don't know if this would be relevant in your case or not, just what I experience and deal with day to day.

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