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Chris-RustyRed

Positive ground vs Negative Ground - Which manual is correct

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I am working on getting to know my new to me B414 and must say many things have been a struggle to understand..this topic is one of the items that has me very confused.

The serial number on mine is #1043 and I really want to get my lights and all electrical items working but am stuck on issue number ONE.

I have no way of knowing which way I should hook the battery up..I never knew positive ground was a thing until last week...saw it in the manual, did some research, went and hesitantly switched my terminals around on the battery to make it a positive ground. Main work light on tractor all of a sudden came on for the first time when I started the tractor this way...yay...at least I thought...lol

I shut it off right away since I was worried about it frying something...then started it again..and light no longer worked...weird.
Left it as is...hooked up as positive ground.

Today as I was looking for other items, I see in the shop manual that I bought from Ebay  that it shows this tractor should be negative ground...so my online PDF version of the manual shows Positive Ground...but the old looking International Shop manual I bought off Ebay shows it to be negative ground....to a newbie like myself...this is horrible..lol

How can I tell which manual is correct..and which way I should run my battery now?.

I do research a ton before posting questions but I could easily miss something simple...I am a total NEWBIE to this world.

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It could have been built either way depending on where it was going. Which ever way it was built it could have been changed. Polarity makes no diference to the lights or starter. It does to generator, regulator and coil. I do not know if you are equiped with ammeter or indicator light. If it has ammeter it would indicate polarity. Ignition or lights on engine not running ammeter should show discharge. Otherwise look at coil whichever terminal is hooked to distributor is what ground should be.

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It only has the indicator lights...I think one is for charge, one for low oil, then it has a water temp..and a Tach that I am replacing.

I can't get any of the lights to work...indicators or headlight..or temp gauge (but that's separate I think)..I will go look at the coil and see what I can tell...update soon.

What sucks is maybe all the lights are now just burned out?..lol The headlight worked for that brief moment when I changed polarity..but that's all I have ever seen work as far as lights.

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Your lights DO NOT  care one little bit about pos or neg ground.   Some very modern led lights do but you for sure do not have any of them and it would not  burn them out anyway, they just would not light up with wrong polarity.   Almost all IH tractors were positive ground until 1958, and some even after that.  

What would burn out lights is if they were a different voltage than your battery.  I am not familiar with your model so do not know if it is six or twelve volt system. If six volt and you put in a twelve volt battery, it for sure will burn out the light. Most voltage regulators are marked as to what polarity and voltage they are used for.  Usually    under bottom of regulator. 

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I guess the coil and distributor connection is over my head still...I only see one wire coming off the coil going to distributor and no idea what terminal it is..I only see the one terminal with three spade type connections....again...total newbie here..sorry.

b414-coil.jpg.ad35e70a5431c99a02d213fff7092c4e.jpg

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Just now, Chris-RustyRed said:

I am working on getting to know my new to me B414 and must say many things have been a struggle to understand..this topic is one of the items that has me very confused.

The serial number on mine is #1043 and I really want to get my lights and all electrical items working but am stuck on issue number ONE.

I have no way of knowing which way I should hook the battery up..I never knew positive ground was a thing until last week...saw it in the manual, did some research, went and hesitantly switched my terminals around on the battery to make it a positive ground. Main work light on tractor all of a sudden came on for the first time when I started the tractor this way...yay...at least I thought...lol

I shut it off right away since I was worried about it frying something...then started it again..and light no longer worked...weird.
Left it as is...hooked up as positive ground.

Today as I was looking for other items, I see in the shop manual that I bought from Ebay  that it shows this tractor should be negative ground...so my online PDF version of the manual shows Positive Ground...but the old looking International Shop manual I bought off Ebay shows it to be negative ground....to a newbie like myself...this is horrible..lol

How can I tell which manual is correct..and which way I should run my battery now?.

I do research a ton before posting questions but I could easily miss something simple...I am a total NEWBIE to this world.

Your light working then not working is your light switch with dirty contacts or a faulty ground somewhere in your harness-- nothing to do with your polarity issue. Just a coincidental occurrence

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Pete...I am pretty sure mine is 12 volt...when I test the battery while running I get 13.3 or 13.6 volts. Now I am questioning it though so will have to do more research..lol

The voltage regulator is in a hard to access area...I may have to dig in to that once i know more of what I am doing...figured I could get some light to work though if I switched polarities..but maybe it is all tied to the regulator?..and then there is the whole..re-polarizing of the generator I read about..so that will be more learning to come.

 

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Just now, Binderoid said:

Your light working then not working is your light switch with dirty contacts or a faulty ground somewhere in your harness-- nothing to do with your polarity issue. Just a coincidental occurrence

I will have a look at that...good point...and it's things like that which make troubleshooting for newbies very hard at times...lol multiple items at once..or "coincidences" have caused me much wasted time in my life...that's for sure..lol Thank you.

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I do not have a work station at the farm...trying to use photoshop on floor is a killer for my back so I apologize for horrible photo edits.

Here are two different manuals and why I am confused...now the one item that says negative ground is referring to the regulator it appears...but shouldn't that be the same as the battery?

negative-ground.jpg.53c684297f1f4c14e611d952ba64caaf.jpg

poitive-ground.jpg.b6c2e59f3c1d1026944aaa14785c5ec7.jpg

 

 

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wiring diagram in the IH parts manual shows positive ground #24 is the battery clearly shows + to ground

image.thumb.png.5026226ee43108057110abbb55953ea1.png

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Finally had to call it a night..made a little head way.

Right now I have it on positive ground...I figured out why the rear work light (headlight) was not working and why it may have worked briefly...

There was a broken bulb in the small tail light fixture that was shorting out..could not see there was anything in there since the glass portion was gone. Removed that and now I have the work light and that small light working.

I had no luck with either of the indicator lights (charge light and low oil) as well as no luck with the front light wires.

Back at it tomorrow if I can handle the pain from my sunburn...red hair, light skin and working on tractor for three solid days has taken it's toll...but this tractor is first step needed for my upcoming shop build...at least that's my goal :)

Thank you all and good night.

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2 hours ago, gordon76 said:

wiring diagram in the IH parts manual shows positive ground #24 is the battery clearly shows + to ground

image.thumb.png.5026226ee43108057110abbb55953ea1.png

Just so I know...how can you tell it shows the positive to ground? I looked at this earlier and couldn't tell which lead of the battery was which.

Thank you.

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4 hours ago, Chris-RustyRed said:

Just so I know...how can you tell it shows the positive to ground? I looked at this earlier and couldn't tell which lead of the battery was which.

Thank you.

The diagram is a little blurry when i blow it up on my phone but it looks like On #24 the battery     #23 (the black arrow) that is the ground symbol and next to that it looks like a P so that means Positive ground. 

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42 minutes ago, krich said:

The diagram is a little blurry when i blow it up on my phone but it looks like On #24 the battery     #23 (the black arrow) that is the ground symbol and next to that it looks like a P so that means Positive ground. 

...and there is clearly a minus sign next to the terminal on the battery that runs out to the rest of the wiring harness.

The smudge next to the grounded terminal of the battery looks more like a plus sign to me.

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49 minutes ago, Matt Kirsch said:

...and there is clearly a minus sign next to the terminal on the battery that runs out to the rest of the wiring harness.

The smudge next to the grounded terminal of the battery looks more like a plus sign to me.

Yeah it could be haha it gets blurry and It's hard to see when I expand the diagram 🤷‍♂️

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First thing to do is check generator and regulator to see if they still function correctly. If gen and cutout do not repolarize. They can both go up in smoke. As I said whichever way it was built it could have been changed.

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9 hours ago, Chris-RustyRed said:

I do not have a work station at the farm...trying to use photoshop on floor is a killer for my back so I apologize for horrible photo edits.

Here are two different manuals and why I am confused...now the one item that says negative ground is referring to the regulator it appears...but shouldn't that be the same as the battery?

negative-ground.jpg.53c684297f1f4c14e611d952ba64caaf.jpg

poitive-ground.jpg.b6c2e59f3c1d1026944aaa14785c5ec7.jpg

 

 

Can you show more of the “repolarize the generator” I just replaced the resistor in my 64 farmall 560 and now I’m having generator issues. Some one told me that I might need to repolarize the generator. According to the schematics I’ve found I have a negative ground system I don’t know if that makes a difference of having to re do it or not. 

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Parts book shows positive ground, clearly.  I, personally would get at that voltage regulator to see if it is marked.  Only two parts on that tractor that give one hoot about polarity and they are regulator and ign coil.  Won't hurt coil if polarity is wrong, just not as efficient.  Older regulators used different metals on the contact points for diff polarity so you will shorten life of points if wrong polarity.  You polarize same way regardless of polarity.   Flash battery terminal on regulator to generator (armature) terminal on regulator. .  All you doing is getting those invisible little electrons all pointing their tails in the right direction. 

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the same wire diagram  is in the IT manual you are using page #43, figure #81 to the right of the page is the list of components look at #23 ground strap positive

the trouble with the IT manuals is they are condensed and missing info. 

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23 minutes ago, gordon76 said:

the same wire diagram  is in the IT manual you are using page #43, figure #81 to the right of the page is the list of components look at #23 ground strap positive

the trouble with the IT manuals is they are condensed and missing info

I am still pre coffee so very slow...but wanted to quickly comment on this...and THANK YOU for making me feel less nuts...lol
I have been asking a friend for help on a few items in the shop manual to make sure I am not just full on blind now as some of the diagrams are missing the majority of the parts descriptions...it may show 60 numbered parts...then there is a line by line numbered breakdown of the parts..but it starts at number 24. and goes to around 33 is all...I was like where the heck is all the rest of these parts listed?...lol Why would they do that?..and are there other versions of these manuals for dumb dumbs like myself that can't figure out names for all the parts they "forgot" to list out.

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An I T manual is like a readers digest version of the bible it leaves out a lot of important information. and gives you just enough to get in trouble when possible I use oem versions of service manuals

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2 hours ago, Mtviking said:

Can you show more of the “repolarize the generator” I just replaced the resistor in my 64 farmall 560 and now I’m having generator issues. Some one told me that I might need to repolarize the generator. According to the schematics I’ve found I have a negative ground system I don’t know if that makes a difference of having to re do it or not. 

I didn't even see that in the manual until after I tried to do mine...
Here is a copy of the PDF file I found online...let me know if that helps...if not I will go out and get the manual and take a photo.

When and How to Polarize a Generator
Polarization is a procedure which matches the polarity for the generator and the voltage
regulator by permitting a surge of current to flow through the generator, correctly polarizing
it. Damage to electrical components can occur if polarities do not match.
Ferguson tractors have utilized both positive and negative ground systems.

Delco 6V systems have positive ( + ) ground.
Delco 12 V systems have negative ( - ) ground
Lucas systems for both 6V and 12V models have positive ( + ) ground.

Polarization of the generator should take place whenever any of the following events occur:
1. The battery is replaced or disconnected from the tractor
2. The generator is replaced or serviced
3. The regulator is replaced or serviced

If any of these events occurred, do not start the engine until polarization is done. The
polarity of the generator must be set to match that of the voltage regulator.

Make a jumper wire (14 or 16 gauge) long enough to reach from the battery to the
generator. Put alligator clips on both ends.

To polarize a generator on a tractor having a Delco 6V positive ground system or a Lucas
6V or 12V positive ground system, attach one clip to the A terminal on the generator. With
the other clip, briefly for only a split-second (or a spark occurs) tap the negative ( - )
terminal on the battery.

To polarize a generator on a tractor having a Delco 12V negative ground system, attach
one clip to the A terminal on the generator. With the other clip, briefly for only a split-second
(or a spark occurs) tap the positive ( + ) terminal on the battery.
Turn on the ignition switch. On models with the charge indicator light (TE/TEA/TO-20), the
light should come on (indicating discharge) before the engine is started. Once the engine
starts and the system is charging, the red light should go off, just like the idiot light on many
cars and trucks.

If the engine is running slowly so the generator is not charging enough to overcome the load
(ignition/lights) the red light should come back on or glow slightly. Also, because the cut out
relay in the regulator will not close (and connect the generator to the battery to charge it)
until the generator starts putting out enough power to charge the battery, the light may stay
on or the ammeter will show discharge until the throttle is opened enough to raise the
engine rpm enough to get the generator provide enough current to charge the battery.

If the ammeter needle moves in a negative (discharge) direction when the engine is revved
up, you must reverse the two wires on the back of the ammeter

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5 minutes ago, Chris-RustyRed said:

Lucas systems for both 6V and 12V models have positive ( + ) ground.

b414 gas used a Lucas system

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29 minutes ago, Chris-RustyRed said:

it may show 60 numbered parts...then there is a line by line numbered breakdown of the parts..but it starts at number 24. and goes to around 33 is all...I was like where the heck is all the rest of these parts listed?

I know it doesn't really help, but the explanation is, it generally only lists the parts relevant to the procedure being described in the paragraph.

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