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Newbie needs help with hydraulic issue b414


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Hi all...I am VERY new to anything tractor related above riding mowers and just acquired a B414 from an estate who knew nothing about it so I am on my own for the most part.

Have had it a week or so...everything worked but I wanted to do some routine maintenance...changed all fluids, greased zerks etc.

Have been using it for the last couple of days doing brush hogging...seems to work decent enough although power steering has some issues still.

Parked it last night at 9:30 p.m...went out this morning, took filler plug off to add Hy trans fluid due to leak around suction filter. Poured a bit in the funnel and to my surprise it was FULL already.

I know I only added three gallons to the resevoir and then measured it with a stick so I could have the approximate three inch level as instructed on youtube video.

I decided to put plug back in and start it to see if all was well and I have NO hydraulics at all...I moved levers back and forth several times for about 30 seconds then got worried and came here to seek advice.

Again I am clueless to this..so any and all help is greatly appreciated. I do have the manuals but they assume I should already have more knowledge than I have to start with I am afraid. 

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Thank you for the reply. The slow / fast valve on mine is actually non operative right now and is always in the fast position I guess...the other valve to shut off the fluid is working fine and I double checked that one.

My main concern is the fluid level being so high...it should only register about three inches high when using a stick according to what I have been told.

If it is totally full then there is no room for expansion and bad things can happen I guess.

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The slow/fast valve could be the culprit. its easy to service it. the hardest part is getting the rolled pin out of the knob for full disassembly.  I changed the O-rings on my last fall.  here's some pix   

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52 minutes ago, Power of Red said:

The slow/fast valve could be the culprit. its easy to service it. the hardest part is getting the rolled pin out of the knob for full disassembly.  I changed the O-rings on my last fall.  here's some pix   

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That is the isolater valve. He has a broken pin in the valve on the other side 

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The loader was up..but it has an added (I think) manual shut off valve that was closed...I have to open that valve to use the loader. The mower was down when I filled it.

I am wondering the following now...

My isolator valve roll pin was not very secure so it may have fallen off perhaps?

This is what happened to my slow / fast valve...the pin fell apart when I removed it to change O ring...I just put it back in without the pin so its always on the fast setting which is all I will ever need I think.

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Soon as it stops raining buckets I am going to go drain the new fluid and check that isolator valve...it would be weird that it popped out over night though as I worked this thing until dark..parked it and found it like this in the morning.

Only other possibilities that my very limited understanding could cause me to think could be...

The original owner used a dark color of hydraulic fluid..when I did the fluid change I didn't drain all the lines or pump...I heard tto types of this stuff can possibly jell when mixed. Maybe that jell was formed overnight and caused a blockage and now all the fluid is going one direction when running and that's why the reservoir is full...which could mean my pump and lines are empty.

Other possible thing (again no idea what I am talking about) is that he also used Permatex type substance on the suction housing...I found pieces of that inside the housing that I cleaned out.. Maybe the new lighter weight fluid pushed some of that into small passages and again caused the fluid to only go one direction.

So I guess I now have three possibles that I came up...maybe all three are not possible so please tell me if any can be ruled out easily..or if I am simply not grasping things yet...which is totally possible...lol

Soo frustrating to finally own this after almost three years of looking to get one and have nobody to tell me how it is supposed to even work. So much to learn.

 

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Another thought if you are leaking oil out around filter. You could also be leaking air in causing pump to lose prime. Again not completely familiar with tractor. I know resivour is under seat but is pump higher or lower?

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2 hours ago, snoshoe said:

When you lowered the loader the oil that had been trapped in cylinders is what over filled system.

I don't think you've told us. Is your steering the same as redngreeniron.

Just got home...sorry not sure what redngreeniron is so I don't know.

Where the leak is does not appear to need to be air tight since it's just a tank..the fluid gets sucked from the tank to the pump up on front of the tractor area (someone chime in if I am wrong)...but my suction filter was pretty loose and leaky when it was working each time.

And yeah, now I am not sure what amount should be put in when draining reservoir so maybe I did over fill it on ac...Owners manual capacity says three gallons but not sure if that is with all lines empty or not...or how I can tell if lines are full or empty...And I don't know if the level in reservoir will always change based on cylinders being extended or retracted. Manual also says to fill fluid to bottom of filler hole when bleeding the system (which is just using controls back and forth until pressure builds).

That all being said...I am VERY concerned about over filling this thing and blowing something due to lack of money or help with repairs. This is the single largest purchase I have made in over a decade and even got a loan for it...now it sits...sigh.

Getting ready to go drain it again now that I have clean bucket and transfer pump.

 

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Drained the fluid and about 3.5 gallons came out...WHICH BLOWS MY MIND...lol
The level when drained was literally to the top of the housing as in seeping out when I took the filler bolt off but after draining it and putting fluid back in I measured the fluid and it was at the appropriate level of three inches...I am stumped on this one...same amount of fluid can make it show totally full..then after drained and put back in it only shows half full...if that.
After refilling I felt safe on the fluid level so ran the tractor for about ten minutes trying to bleed air out of or knock something lose...hydraulics were fully down so I did a number on my yard with the loader and brush hog...ugh. No change what soever..rechecked both the valve assemblies and notice nothing abnormal.

I am now fully out of options for me to try on my own.

Serial number is #1043 so it has the single stage pump...and a flow divider.

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After running for nobody knows how long without the fine mesh screen on the filter. I'm guessing the pump is not in very good shape. That probably has a lot to do with your priming problem. Any air leaks on suction line aggravate problem. If pump is lower than tank. Loosening suction at pump should allow oil to flow to pump. As an alternative removing steering supply line at flow divider and starting engine often will prime pump. Be prepared to shut off engine quick.

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Snoshoe...actually the only thing I did yesterday before I added fluid and found I had no hydraulics was I sealed the suction line to the housing in order to stop the leaking Oring...I used some wire and tied it firmly back to the Axle housing which seemed to work decent...maybe I will go out now and make that leak happen and give it a shot...won't hold my breath as my luck is fairly bad lately...lol Stay tuned...and thank you for giving me something to try :)

I am currently researching (trying to anyway) on how I would safely remove lines etc to check for blockages..I have never touched a hydraulic line other than my low pressure suction line now and have already read how dangerous this can be...again with my luck I don;t want to just crack a line open without knowing what to expect..if there is pressure..O rings..etc.

Once I get comfortable with taking the lines off I will want to replace a few very old lines as I can afford it...and I will want to figure out how to use a pressure gauge (hoping they are semi cheap on Amazon).

Thanks again...out I go to Old Red.

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Made the air leak back to how it was..ran it for five minutes..pulling lever front and back while bumping tractor forward and reverse with no change.

I am guessing either a blockage or pump went out...weird that it happened over night though.

There is zero pressure on my loaders shut off valve as well, usually when I pull that valve there is some resistance..now it just turns freely...I am assuming this means there is no pressure in the system...but I hate assuming...lol

Now this theory..

If my flow divider were to go bad..would it cause all the fluid to be pushed back into the reservoir and that's why it was so full yesterday?  And then the pump basically works as a recirculating pump since there is nothing to stop the flow and build the pressure up? Then once I find and repair the blockage..the fluid would then flow to the the cylinders instead of the reservoir and pressure would build? I am thinking of this as plumbing...all I have to go off..lol

Final question...if I have no hydraulics...can I safely start taking taking lines off? And in the shop manual there is some spring in the flow divider that may go bad..will that have pressure on it? I might be being to cautious but being new like this I would rather be safe than break the tractor or myself..lol

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Right now the pump is not pumping oil. The flow divider is not an issue except for steering. 

With engine off lower everything to ground. Wiggle all levers to relieve any residual pressure. You can now remove any line you want. The worst that can happen is you will lose some oil.

The only blockage to be looking for at this time is the suction line. Preventing oil from reaching pump. At this time I do not know if pump or flow divider is higher or lower than tank. The only reason the suction line passes through flow divider is to allow steering relief valve to return oil to pump without a seperate line.

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I just did those steps...I placed my main line from the pump into a clean bucket..started tractor and nothing came about..only ran it for ten seconds or so though.

Should fluid come out almost instantly when working correctly?

Not sure what my next step is? The suction line is pretty darn big so would take a heck of a blockage unless there is smaller opening where the top hard to reach large fitting is on top of the pump. I was hoping to see fluid come out but once again...not what I wanted to see..lol

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Well confirms what I said pump is not pumping oil. Either it can't get any or it's not turning. If pump is lower than tank. Removing suction line from pump should allow oil to flow to pump unless some point of line is higher than level in tank. If pump is higher you need to apply enough air pressure to tank to force oil to pump. If you have oil at pump and it doe's .not pump. Pump is very bad or not turning.

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Hi, do you know the condition of the suction filter?
From photo it would appear  that is a IH 2000 loader on it? Take a look under the seat and see if there is a flat plate than can be removed from the top of the hydraulic reservoir?
If this plate has 2 hydraulic connections on it then this is setup like an industrial tractor loader. Please post some pictures of hydraulic connections at front of seat and power steering setup.
If you take this plate off with engine running at idle you should see hydraulic oil flow and hopefully not bubbles like the attached photo.
Also to prime the hydraulic system on this tractor, if you can move the tractor to a place where the front wheels are lower than the rear wheels that will help or if you have an air compressor and air gun, open the filler hole and plug around air gun with a clean rag, start tractor and slightly pressurize the hydraulic reservoir. 

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Still covered in oil but wanted to update you all...

First Jim...my suction filter is only the wire mesh..no filter on it..the fluid is all brand new Napa brand Hy Trans Ultra compatible...and yes it says 2000 on the loader...I thought that was the year at first...lol

I am not positive but it does sound like it is a priming issue like Snoshoe suggests..here is what the last couple of days were like...and I am so beat!

I took apart the main hose from my hydraulic pump in front..put it in a clean bucket and ran tractor...nothing came out except a few little burst of air and drop of oil.
I then took off the lines hooked to the flow divider...blew them all out with my air compressor nozzle...drained all the fluid, took out suction line again..all looked fine so hooked everything back up.

I then tried to run it and got a little nudge of hydraulics..then nothing so I added more fluid (figured what the heck)...then it started working all of a sudden...yay!

THEN..no more than thirty minutes of running it I get stuck in the mud for the second time...it sits once again for hours while I dig mud and get stuck even worse...friend comes and tows me out...all is well...I use it for next couple hours adjust brakes, adjust clutch..use it more then I run it out of gas...it's dark I go to bed...

Wake up..go get gas..start it up (doesn't run as smooth as it normally does..next issue to address) but it runs...problem is NO HYDRAULICS AGAIN!...ugh.

So I open the filler plug and fill it up...I see the fluid kind of coming up..and down...coming up..and down...slow waves..almost over flowing out of filler hole but not quite...I get nothing out of the controls while this is happening...
Then I grab the steering wheel and use all my might to turn the wheel a few inches...a big spurt of air or oil comes out of filler hole and hydraulics work again.

I have more questions and issues with other items now but am still a total mess so need to chill for awhile....if anyone has input on what I can do to stop my hydraulics from dissapearing I would love to hear them...maybe park it downhill each night?

Thank you all...this tractoring sure has been a lot of work and learning...but it will pay off I hope.

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Sorry..just now learning what those items all are...lol

I originally thought the pump was a big thing under the seat..but that's the reservoir...pump is up front ran off the motor...flow divider is in line between the pump and reservoir...it appears to me that the pump is close to same height as the reservoir..flow divider is maybe a little bit lower.but same level as the pumps output line...and I don't think there is any vents..at least that I am aware of.

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I also asked if oil level is rising in engine crankcase. If seal is leaking on pump shaft it would leak oil into engine. With no vent on tank when tractor sat and oil cooled down. The contraction would pull air past that seal causing pump to lose its prime. The tank requiers a vent to work properly any way. I could not find one listed in parts. Often on older equipment the fill plug had a cross drilled hole or a slot cut in side of threads. I can't tell from parts description if it is anything other than an ordinary pipe plug. If you can find no other vent I suggest you obtain a breather such as used in double acting cylinders when used single acting to replace fill plug.

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Pictures of what you are doing while your doing it may help the guys trying to help you see whats going on. 

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