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Hukipepe

Case 5140 misses power

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Hi,

 

I have  Case 5140 (1993) and about 2 months ago it started to miss power in plowing. All 6 injectors were replaced because it were burnt. Couple days ago I cultivated with it and it worked fine one day, but the next day after about one hour of work  it started again to miss power and to had rough idle. There is no smoke on exhaust pipe. Injection pump have been checked twice and is OK. There is no bubbles in radiator and overflow tank. Fuel filters are clean, fuel pump isn't hot when tractor works. 

What can cause this problems once the engine is hot? Could it be some misalignment of injection pump after reinstallation? What could cause the injectors to burn?

Local mechanic isn't familiar with this type of tractor.

 

Any suggestions would be appreciated.

 

Thanks

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Did you change the fuel filters? You say they're "clean", but are they new? 

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37 minutes ago, J-Mech said:

Did you change the fuel filters? You say they're "clean", but are they new? 

No, i didn't change filters. I am going to change it as well as the primer pump because these items aren't expensive. But I am still wondering why that happens when engine is warm? How does the higher temperature affects the filters?

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9 minutes ago, Hukipepe said:

No, i didn't change filters. I am going to change it as well as the primer pump because these items aren't expensive. But I am still wondering why that happens when engine is warm? How does the higher temperature affects the filters?

Everything changes when things warm up.  A worn out engine will generate excessive heat, and can lose power when hot.  Same with the injection pump.  Fuel changes viscosity when warm, and filters can swell.  Lots of things change.  As far as the injectors being "burnt", I'm not following.  Are you saying they got hot and scored the tips or the plungers?  If that is the case then your cylinder temps are too high.  Either you are lugging it too hard and running the cylinder temps up, or your engine is just getting tired.  It's up to you and the mechanics to figure that part out.  

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11 minutes ago, J-Mech said:

Everything changes when things warm up.  A worn out engine will generate excessive heat, and can lose power when hot.  Same with the injection pump.  Fuel changes viscosity when warm, and filters can swell.  Lots of things change.  As far as the injectors being "burnt", I'm not following.  Are you saying they got hot and scored the tips or the plungers?  If that is the case then your cylinder temps are too high.  Either you are lugging it too hard and running the cylinder temps up, or your engine is just getting tired.  It's up to you and the mechanics to figure that part out.  

The tips of injectors were blue. There was no enough coolant in radiator, I was paying  attention only on the level in overflow tank.

That " engine is just getting tired" is what makes me concerned, because general repair is too expensive. I am going to try some minor repair steps and if that would be ineffective I would consider what next to do.

Thanks anyway.

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7 minutes ago, Hukipepe said:

your engine is just getting tired

Does it means something if compression is OK?

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Good compression is one of the basic necessities of a diesel engine however before we dismiss your compression as being OK what was the reading ?

For you to say "Compression is OK" suggests someone has taken a compression reading and this fact will greatly assist in the next steps or decisions over what can be done. 

IF the compression is still up where it should be then the engine theoretically is good subject to the rest of the bearing and such being in keeping with the overall condition of the engine. Good compression  equals good "firing' or ignition of the fuel. Low compression results in poor or non ignition of the diesel.  By the sounds of it, if the compression is good, we have eliminated one point that could be causing your problem.

All we have to do is find the culprit :-) 😁

 

Cheers Brett

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Some new moments in the Case 5140 case.

Mechanic bypassed the filters and the primer pump putting the transparent hose from fuel tank direct to the injection pump and result was that injection pump did not  get enough  fuel under load.

He said there is some tandem pump within injection pump and that could be the problem.

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He's not a mechanic.  Find another one.  

Fuel hose shouldn't be transparent.... 

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Bypassing fiters from your fuel tank is a good way to ruin your pump,there is dirt,gunk water in there from all the years of operation.  I don't really see a need to do that with clean filters ,air bled out,and good supply of fuel.I have bypassed fuel tanks but never filters.

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1 hour ago, J-Mech said:

Fuel hose shouldn't be transparent....

For what its worth I believe he is using clear hose to see whats going on. I myself use clear hose to diagnose fuel supply problems. I will say this it seems like he doesn't have the correct understanding of what is going on. I have seen hundreds on "burnt" injectors that tested good on the test stand. As far as whats going on, on this tractor I would suggest a fuel pressure gauge after the filters. This will give you a good picture of what the condition of supply side is. If you worked it for a day and had no problems then hour into the next day started having problems again should be a clue to check your supply side. As fuel level goes down in tank the inches of vacuum it takes to "pull" fuel from tank changes. There is a fine screen on the inlet supply side of fuel sender. You have to removed seat to access sender or remove tank. If you check the screen in tank just remove it and install an external inline filter before transfer pump. 

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2 hours ago, Jacka said:

Bypassing fiters from your fuel tank is a good way to ruin your pump,there is dirt,gunk water in there from all the years of operation.  I don't really see a need to do that with clean filters ,air bled out,and good supply of fuel.I have bypassed fuel tanks but never filters.

My point exactly and why I would find another mechanic.  Any good tech would never risk a pump.  

Then there is his diagnoses based on his "test".  :blink:

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Always use transparent hose when doing a bubble test during diagnoses. 

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Just for the record I didn't say anything about using clear hose to look for suction leaks.  The way it was worded makes it sound to me like the tractor has clear hose used as fuel line.  Which, is not right.  If used for diagnostics, the clear hose should be removed when done.  

 

As a note, a couple times I have used clear hose to look for suction leaks.  But 90 ot of 100 times, you can just look for a resting fuel leak and find your problem.  A leak that only occurs when the engine is off and has sat a while.

FWIW, nothing in this thread has convinced me of anything.  Timing may be off, engine may be being worked too hard, engine may be worn out, may have a weak fuel pump.... only thing I've read that makes any sense is no smoke out the exhaust and the injector tips have been hot.  Tells me it's running lean, but that could be any number of issues.  Sounds to me like what the OP needs is a decent mechanic to work on it. 

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As CIHTECH stated there is a screen on the fuel sender which maybe restricted . If I may add to that if my memory is correct there is updated fuel supply lines that that run from the sender to the engine . The original ones had a stainless steel braid covering , the inside liner would crack causing air to be drawn in , the ones I have replaced wouldnt leak fuel with the engine not running but would draw air when running and was worse as the fuel level was lower in the fuel tank . Installed the new lines and cured the problem .

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If Iremember correctly, the 5.9 Cummins in the 5140 has a fuel lift pump on the inj pump side of the block that runs off of the camshaft.  These pumps are relatively inexpensive and could be starving the engine for fuel, especially when the fuel is warm.  Good luck.

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Worst case scenario....If the engine overheated enough (with low coolant)  that the injectors turned blue, I'd be concerned that the pistons scored and are binding when hot.   Wouldn't you be able to test that by shutting the engine off when it starts losing power and seeing if the starter will turn it over like normal??    Thoughts?  (Yah I know I'm a pessimist....)

Clean the screen, new lift pump, new filters and see what happens.  Oh, and make sure the vent on the tank is clear.  Thats another sneaky one that can shut you down after running for an hour or so.

  As far as your mechanic...I agree that finding someone familiar with the engines would help tremendously....but at least this guy was honest and told you upfront he wasn't knowledgeable.   I'll work with a tech that says "I don't know, let me find out"  any day over the guy who knows nothing & tries to make you think he knows everything!

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I know for a fact those engines don’t take kindly to being severely  over heated.  If they score a cylinder(s) they will run horrible right from startup though.

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Hi,

First, thanks for really useful suggestions and readiness to help.

As far as mechanic concerns, it will take too long to explain situation where I live and how it works here, so this mechanic is first and last choice, so far.

The newest diagnosis has shown that fuel shut-off solenoid on the injection pump  is defective. The mechanic shut-off that shut-off solenoid and tried the tractor and it worked fine (I do not live in that place where the tractor is, so we communicate by the phone calls).

In Service Manual for Case 5100 series it says that defective solenoid can cause difficult starting and problems with shutting engine off. I didn't ask him how it affects idle and power and

how engine started anyway. He does not speak or read English, I have translated several pages from the manual for him, but all that communication is clumsy.

I am not so familiar with mechanics, more precisely, I have not a clue about it, so we will see how it is going to work with new solenoid and new filters.

What do you think guys, about this solenoid issue?

Thanks again.

 

 

 

 

 

 

279097495_Case5100.thumb.JPG.020100da3f7fa7efd2ec8d2c2c7119d3.JPG

 

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1 hour ago, Hukipepe said:

The newest diagnosis has shown that fuel shut-off solenoid on the injection pump  is defective. The mechanic shut-off that shut-off solenoid and tried the tractor and it worked fine (I do not live in that place where the tractor is, so we communicate by the phone calls).

He does not speak or read English, I have translated several pages from the manual for him, but all that communication is clumsy.

What do you think guys, about this solenoid issue?

 

If he "shut off" the fuel solenoid, then the tractor wouldn't run at all.  Sounds like you are getting lost in his translation.  

What do I think?  I think you're in a bind.  I don't know why you don't live where the tractor is, or why you don't have an English speaking mechanic.... but it sounds like you are set up with a problem and and even worse attempt at a fix.  

Is the shut of solenoid a likely cause?  It's plausible....

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12 hours ago, J-Mech said:

I don't know why you don't live where the tractor is, or why you don't have an English speaking mechanic

I am from Serbia, that is a small country in Southeast Europe (not to be mistaken with Siberia in Russia). It isn't so important, just to avoid some misunderstandings and to justify spelling and grammar mistakes in my English.

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I know your welcome here, your English is fine ,I think somehow your mechanic is going to have to work through it. 

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I've never seen a VE solenoid work some of the time or part of the way open. They seem to either work correctly, or not at all. It can be taken out, and remove the plunger and reinstall the body to seal up the hole. It will run normally then just not shut off with the key. Many VE pumps on B series Cummins engines had a mechanical shut-off lever on the pump, but not connected to anything. 

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On 4/4/2019 at 8:36 AM, Injpumped said:

I've never seen a VE solenoid work some of the time or part of the way open. They seem to either work correctly, or not at all. It can be taken out, and remove the plunger and reinstall the body to seal up the hole. It will run normally then just not shut off with the key. Many VE pumps on B series Cummins engines had a mechanical shut-off lever on the pump, but not connected to anything. 

We had one give us fits before. Ended up swapping out the one from the parts engine and it solved the issues

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Hi, just to update information regarding shut off solenoid - it has been replaced and the tractor works  fine now, no jerks, no power loses.

 

The other issue makes me  trouble  now. Case 5140 has left automatic stabilizer for power links. This stabilizer should be attached by chain to the tractor left mudguard so as to provide free movement of power links. When I put the chain, once the power links are lowered, the chain breaks due to  force. I tried with some strong spring, but same happened, as spring stretches and can not keep stabilizer in floating position.

How this can be solved?  If someone can put some photos of stabilizer with chains.

 

Thanks

case.JPG

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