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Swapping a 436 combine engine into a 966


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I currently have a 966 that is creating a lot of excessive blow by and possibly steam.  Maybe water in the crank but I am not sure yet. Here are the symptoms I have.

1. hard starting  It needs ether to start unless it has been warmed up.  It wont even produce smoke out the exhaust until you apply ether.  Once it has been started it starts fine until it cools back down.

2. Misses at start.  It seems to miss for a few seconds at start up until things get going.  I have seen almost all John Deere's do this but not the 400 series IH engines.

3. Once it warmed up I was getting a lot of Blow by  Could be some steam from either condensation or a possible antifreeze leak into the crank.  More diagnosis will be needed.

4. Runs high RPM.  When I open up the throttle it pegs the needle on the tach. 

5. High oil pressure.  The oil pressure gauge shows about 75psi oil pressure 

 

So I think worst case I may need to do an OH.  I hope to be able to do an inframe OH and remedy my issues.  My other option is I have a 1440 salvage combine with a 5000 hr 436 engine just sitting in the yard. I could just do the swap.  I assume I could use my oil pan Injection pump off of my 966 and just swap the block. 

 

What do you all think?   

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The only reason I can think of for the engine to over-rev is injection pump.   I had this happen before, pump failed and engine went 3000+ rpm.    Entirely possible that some if not all your problems are related to this.   I think before I did anything I would take the pump off and have it checked out.  Do not move it to a new engine without testing it.  

I'd get a another manual gauge on the oil pressure to double check it.  That pressure seems weird.

Check for oil in the water (oily junk) or water in oil (loosen drain plug).   

Honestly, I'd rather do a overhaul on the tractor motor than put a 5000hr combine engine in.  The 400 series are so easy to work on, its just not that bad to do an overhaul if you got the tools.

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I agree with Jeff-C-IL.

Don't drive a stake through the heart of that engine until diagnosed. 

Take the nozzles to the shop with the pump for testing. Also the nozzle sleeves can be leaking water into cylinder causing the miss at startup.

Drain water before pulling nozzles as the sleeve can come out and it will then fill cylinder with water/antifreeze.

The governor needs attention as that engine should not over rev. Something is wrong in that pump.

Those engines always start very well and down to zero without ether if in good shape.

The worst case is holes in the sleeves too and an inframe overhaul will be needed.

The manual gauge is needed also to verify the actual oil pressure.

If you have milky looking engine oil, there is water in the oil. That cause needs to be found and will show the steam out of breather.

Good Luck with the project!

 

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It actually sounds to me like most of the problems are injection pump related, so like mentioned above, don't just stick it on a replacement engine. The hard starting is most likely the head in the pump just not popping the nozzles, once ether is added, it spins enough faster that it starts pumping fuel then. Cold engine needs a lot of fuel to get it going. Once warm, it doesn't take as much fuel for starting, plus with warm oil it likely already spins over faster. The slip clutch in the governor is allowing it to overspeed. Both of these issues are fairly common on these model 100 pumps.

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400 series engine swap is pretty simple. Take the tractor engine out of the tractor. Take the combine engine off the combine. Take the combine parts off the combine engine. Transfer the tractor parts off the tractor engine to the combine engine. Install the combine engine in the tractor.

Not sure why you'd want to use the tractor injector pump on the combine engine, especially when it sounds like some of your problems are in the injector pump and injectors.

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If you do end up putting the combine engine in, while you were swapping the oil pan I sure would be rolling new bearings in unless you know the history of the combine engine. Replace the rod bolts too. The back cover is different so time for a rear oil seal also. I have done that swap and it is not bad to do where you will have both engines. There is quite a few items that need swapped like Matt Kirsch said. Seems like oil pan and oil pump pick up tube, dip stick tube, rear cover were the main things. Not sure on the front cover as mine went into a 3388 so no side rails for mounting but you may need to swap the front cover for your tractor. I did swap injection pump over as I wanted tractor settings and did not want to run the wiring for the electric shut off. I agree with the others it does sound like a lot of your issues are more fuel related. 

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5 hours ago, Matt Kirsch said:

400 series engine swap is pretty simple. Take the tractor engine out of the tractor. Take the combine engine off the combine. Take the combine parts off the combine engine. Transfer the tractor parts off the tractor engine to the combine engine. Install the combine engine in the tractor.

Not sure why you'd want to use the tractor injector pump on the combine engine, especially when it sounds like some of your problems are in the injector pump and injectors.

The combine has a really expensive electric fuel shut off solenoid. You ether have to swap the mechanical shutoff stuff to the combine engine (I am not sure how easy or possible that is) or have to rig up an electric wire to get fuel which it's running. I would definitely be sending the pump and injectors for repair no matter what engine to use in the 966

We did put a 1480 engine in a 1586 once and I would do an overhaul first now

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Update

Last night I pulled the drain plug and about 1/2 gallon of antifreeze came out of the oil pan 😥  I am thinking head or head gasket due to the volume of coolant after only about an hour of running.  I will know more when i get it in the shop and pull the head.

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6 minutes ago, BobinIL said:

Update

Last night I pulled the drain plug and about 1/2 gallon of antifreeze came out of the oil pan 😥  I am thinking head or head gasket due to the volume of coolant after only about an hour of running.  I will know more when i get it in the shop and pull the head.

You need bearings almost certainly at this point. I shut off uncle George's 1066 after seeing a little bit of steam out of the blowby tube. He pulled the engine apart and it ended up being that one of the sleeves had cracked completely around and did not drop down out and cause major damage. So don't rule anything out yet. Doing an in-frame or pulling the motor and overhauling it is the best option in all cases in my opinion. Throw another used engine in it could be 5 hours from now that a sleeve cracks in that. Depends on how much luck you do or don't have

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Wow! A half gallon of coolant is a bigger leak than just a head gasket or cracked head. I'd lean towards sleeve orings, cracked sleeve, or cavitated sleeve. That whole engine will need taken out and totally out of frame rebuilt to get it cleaned up.

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Remember, the pump on these is engine oil lubricated, so all that coolant in the oil is likely causing the friction clutch in the governor to slip even more than normal. Anti-freeze is very slippery stuff. 

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40 minutes ago, nepoweshiekfarmalls said:

Can the engine oil cooler put water in the oil? Or do those only oil in the water when they fail?

When running the oil pressure pushes oil in the radiator as oil pressure should be higher than radiator pressure. When shut off it can transfer water into the engine

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Blew a head gasket once in 1066...put lots of anti-freeze in oil pan.  But so does a busted sleeve o ring.  Been down both roads.  Bitty and injpumped have good info.

These engines are nice to work on.  I would take injectors out and have cleaned.     Take head off and have checked and exam head gasket at that time to check and see if it was culprit.  If head checks out ok then you know.

Just FYI McMaster Carr carries orings that you can use for the sleeves for a fraction of the cost.  Riverside engines told me one time to use Murphy oil soap on rubber, Hypermax said dawn dish soap, other here have other tips.

Lots of talk on here not too long ago about kits and quality of kits for sleeves and pistons.  I personally have reused sleeves and pistons before & replaced where needed.

One thing I recommend is when you reassemble bottom end, don’t put oil pan on...you can put water in block before moving forward to make sure orings are sealed and not pinched/rolled.  This saved me a big headache one time.

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On 2/28/2019 at 1:23 PM, Injpumped said:

 That whole engine will need taken out and totally out of frame rebuilt to get it cleaned up.

^^^^^^^this.  When the one sleeve cavitated through on our BC3 Cummins in our KW we left it set just 2 weeks till we could get it around and to a shop to get it fixed.  In that short time the coolant had already started to do its magic of "tarnishing" all the polished surfaces of the crank and cam.  Luckily it all cleaned off as it was not bad yet.

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Personally I’d rebuild it before I’d put a 5k hour combine engine in. Only now your gonna have to rebuild it and have the fuel system done. I don’t know why you couldn’t still Inframe it at this point. The only thing you may find is once you get it apart your cam may show wear more than likely and need to be taken down after all. 

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Any time you pull down one of those engines, replace the rod bolts! Go ahead, ask me how I know that..........

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A combine injector pump is set up totally different than the tractor pump you have even thou they look basically the same except for the fuel shut off solennoid , the combines full throddle rpm is faster than the tractor and the combine governor is set up for full throddle the rated speed where a tractor governor will work at low Rpm,s too 

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5 hours ago, ksfarmdude said:

A combine injector pump is set up totally different than the tractor pump you have even thou they look basically the same except for the fuel shut off solennoid , the combines full throddle rpm is faster than the tractor and the combine governor is set up for full throddle the rated speed where a tractor governor will work at low Rpm,s too 

There are different settings, but it would not be a bad thing to have a combine model 100 pump on a tractor. Biggest issue is idle speed is usually 1000 or more, and may not be able to be brought down without taking shims out of idle spring pack. As far as the rated hp and peak torque settings, there really isn't enough difference to worry about. Now, later model combines with C series Cummins engines, used MW pumps with RSV governor, but no torque capsule in them which makes those a dog if you unload on the go lol! 

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2 hours ago, Injpumped said:

There are different settings, but it would not be a bad thing to have a combine model 100 pump on a tractor. Biggest issue is idle speed is usually 1000 or more, and may not be able to be brought down without taking shims out of idle spring pack. As far as the rated hp and peak torque settings, there really isn't enough difference to worry about. Now, later model combines with C series Cummins engines, used MW pumps with RSV governor, but no torque capsule in them which makes those a dog if you unload on the go lol! 

Idle speed and high idle speed can both be set by using the adjuster screws located on the very  bottom outside end of the pump the combine pump will work just that the tractors govnenor is more sensitive at mid-range RPM where-as the combines are full throddle govenored 

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Oh, I'm fully aware how to adjust them lol! The point I was making is there may not be enough screw adjustment to get the low idle down due to a higher number of shims required in the spring pack for a combine. The high idle speeds are close enough to tractor specs that the screw adjustment will work fine there. As far as sensitivity, there is no difference. The same governor lever is used in both tractor or combine applications, stop plate profiles can vary, but many tractor pumps just have a straight one anyway. I've been rebuilding and modifying these pumps for pullers for many years.  But what do I know? lol!

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