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Differences in 2+2s?


drglinski

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We owned a 6588.  It was amazing what it would pull though we never pulled anything larger the a 30' fc and a 9 shank consertill.  We found a 7288 nearby for sale ...$55K.  4 new tires, new paint, and new engine.  Drove and shifted like a dream.  We passed but wish we could have found a way to buy it.  Always kick myself about it.  It was beefed up in all the right places.

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5 minutes ago, J-Mech said:

Alright Super 70 guys.  I have a question that we've ("we" being me and a friend) been debating for a long while.....  

What's keeping someone from splitting a Super 70 and mating it to a Magnum?  Full powershift 2+2.  

What is the "key" part that you need to mate a 2+2 to a Magnum?  So, lets say you split a 6788.  You want to mate it up to a Magnum.  What isn't going to work?

That's a pretty broad question and I hope it doesn't defer from Daniels topic.  If it does, I'll gladly start a new thread because we've (my friend and I) discussed this many times. 

Also, get ready because if I get an answer, I will check into it, and may even debate......  I really want to know why it hasn't been done, or if it's been tried. 

 

I will answer some of my own questions.... I think the front axle drive ratio on the Super 70's was different due to it being driven direct from center.  There were added ratio's with the transfer case mounted to the side of the trans, then back to the front.  Again.... I could dig into it, but never took the time.  

Anyone wanna bite? 

 

I'm going out on a limb and say the gear ratios would be tough to match exactly.  Plus you would need a different pivot casting.  The Super 70's and 5X88 front axle drove from the middle, while the 3X88/6X88 drove from the drop box off the side of the trans.

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2 minutes ago, Cooter said:

 

I'm going out on a limb and say the gear ratios would be tough to match exactly.  Plus you would need a different pivot casting.  The Super 70's and 5X88 front axle drove from the middle, while the 3X88/6X88 drove from the drop box off the side of the trans.

I know the difference in the drive between the series......  

I guess the real question is, what is the difference in axle ratio (ring and pinion and planetaries) on the front axle between the Super 70's and the other tractors?  I think that's where the difference is.  

We've looked long and hard at the front t-case on the both the 3X and 6X tractors.  Don't see any good way to modify it to accept a center front propshaft.  Plus, the ratio would likely be wrong anyway once it gets to the front axle.  It would be one **** of a job even for a good fab shop to make a new front cover that would accept the center drive shaft..... 

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3 minutes ago, 5088 said:

Are all the Super 70s still in one piece and accounted for?

I swear I've seen pics of a 2+2 (or Super 70) with a Magnum style cab on it.

I was under the impression they were......  

Mmmmmmm..... I've not seen a pic like that.  If there is a pic like that, it's likely on this forum somewhere. 

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12 minutes ago, J-Mech said:

I was under the impression they were......  

Mmmmmmm..... I've not seen a pic like that.  If there is a pic like that, it's likely on this forum somewhere. 

Something similar on pg 264 of the Red 4WD tractors book, it's a 70/2+2 with an early proto Mag cab on it, has the Mag style fenders but looks like the 86/88 cab roof.  It isn't the picture I'm thinking of though.  I'll have to try to remember where I saw it and try to dig it up.

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39 minutes ago, 5088 said:

Something similar on pg 264 of the Red 4WD tractors book, it's a 70/2+2 with an early proto Mag cab on it, has the Mag style fenders but looks like the 86/88 cab roof.  It isn't the picture I'm thinking of though.  I'll have to try to remember where I saw it and try to dig it up.

 

58 minutes ago, 5088 said:

Are all the Super 70s still in one piece and accounted for?

I swear I've seen pics of a 2+2 (or Super 70) with a Magnum style cab on it.

Yes they are all accounted for. There was one Magnum /2+2 made. Dirtboyz just repainted it iirc

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54 minutes ago, bitty said:

 

Yes they are all accounted for. There was one Magnum /2+2 made. Dirtboyz just repainted it iirc

Well.... kind of.  It was an articulated Magnum, but it still had a steerable MFWD front axle.  Close.  Probably used the same hinge point.  But being it used what appeared to be the same front axle as a standard FWA Magnum, no drive ratio adjustment was necessary. 

@DirtBoyz07 care to comment?

I know you (Danny) don't know me on here, (or many of you other guys) but I've followed this forum for a long time before signing up.  Another member I know finally talked me into it, lol.  

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Did the 70 series have the same transmission problem the 50 series had with the small splines stripping off, or as late in IH times as they were built were the large splines used on them from the time of building them ?

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Wow , I just started reading this and I can see the winter must be settling in on people 😂 I have been around the 30 , 60 and 70 series since new and the really good tractors if you use them as they were designed . For gear ratios I have never set down and done all the home work for the speeds , differences between 66,86 transmissions , never really mattered to me . The 30 and 60 series have the hyd TA ,rearend housing/range transmission set up like the 06,56,66,86 .

The biggest thing I seen with these tractors back in the day was lack of maintainace , correct opperation /adding duals to the 30 /60 series . The clutches were not enough for what they were pulling and the center pivot housing worked ok if you owned a grease gun . I have run the 30/60 series in the field and I still say today there a pulling , nice riding tractor . Could the seat be upgraded , you bet , getting in and out of the cab , yep , lighting 👍 

On to the 70 series , this would of been the next generation up graded 2+2. The boys did there home work and this tractor was a tractor , the hinge point fixed, heavier front axel , 50 series back half of the tractor , hyd system upgraded that worked great , more power , inline Bosch injection pump , Switzer turbos , you could run duals all the way around . Because of the merger the tractor got thrown in the scrap pile and that was a big mistake . The Hopless Case Boys though there 94 series crab steer was the ticket , I have news for them !! The deal was Case had all the 4 wheel drives sitting all over the USA and no one bought them so the shut down the super 70's and gave away those 94 series cases . 

The next version of that 70 series would of had the powershift and the IH single door cab . I have been ask by many of you why I don't build a Super 70 powershift , don't think that has not crossed my mind . Most of you don't understand the work that goes into this stuff and the Dirt Boyz Proving Grounds does not have a foundry and a machining facility , oh and the endless check book 😂 I one of you guys want to donate you center housing out of your super 70 I will have that powershift Super 70 done in a week 😎

Over and out for now , Danny 

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2 hours ago, DirtBoyz07 said:

Wow , I just started reading this and I can see the winter must be settling in on people 😂 I have been around the 30 , 60 and 70 series since new and the really good tractors if you use them as they were designed . For gear ratios I have never set down and done all the home work for the speeds , differences between 66,86 transmissions , never really mattered to me . The 30 and 60 series have the hyd TA ,rearend housing/range transmission set up like the 06,56,66,86 .

The biggest thing I seen with these tractors back in the day was lack of maintainace , correct opperation /adding duals to the 30 /60 series . The clutches were not enough for what they were pulling and the center pivot housing worked ok if you owned a grease gun . I have run the 30/60 series in the field and I still say today there a pulling , nice riding tractor . Could the seat be upgraded , you bet , getting in and out of the cab , yep , lighting 👍 

On to the 70 series , this would of been the next generation up graded 2+2. The boys did there home work and this tractor was a tractor , the hinge point fixed, heavier front axel , 50 series back half of the tractor , hyd system upgraded that worked great , more power , inline Bosch injection pump , Switzer turbos , you could run duals all the way around . Because of the merger the tractor got thrown in the scrap pile and that was a big mistake . The Hopless Case Boys though there 94 series crab steer was the ticket , I have news for them !! The deal was Case had all the 4 wheel drives sitting all over the USA and no one bought them so the shut down the super 70's and gave away those 94 series cases . 

The next version of that 70 series would of had the powershift and the IH single door cab . I have been ask by many of you why I don't build a Super 70 powershift , don't think that has not crossed my mind . Most of you don't understand the work that goes into this stuff and the Dirt Boyz Proving Grounds does not have a foundry and a machining facility , oh and the endless check book 😂 I one of you guys want to donate you center housing out of your super 70 I will have that powershift Super 70 done in a week 😎

Over and out for now , Danny 

Nice read Danny. Now if we were to set up a go fund me how long would it take you to have that hydro- mechanical transmission up and going?🤩

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On 12/27/2018 at 7:14 AM, gary1466 said:

2+2 tractors have a faster 2nd gear. It's very popular for tractor pullers to swap to have a faster HI 2nd 

So the 2nd gear in the 33/3588 must be same as in the 4166/86. Our 41 in 2nd gear is pretty much no different than 3rd

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17 hours ago, J-Mech said:

What's keeping someone from splitting a Super 70 and mating it to a Magnum?  Full powershift 2+2.

In a word: Rarity.

Being that there are only a few Super 70s in existence, nobody would dare knock one in the head for this experiment.

Since you can mate a 5X88 front end to an early Magnum rear end with only minor challenges, it would make sense that this would work just as well. Of course that's assuming you survive the lynch mobs and death threats that would come with the territory.

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2 hours ago, Matt Kirsch said:

In a word: Rarity.

Being that there are only a few Super 70s in existence, nobody would dare knock one in the head for this experiment.

Since you can mate a 5X88 front end to an early Magnum rear end with only minor challenges, it would make sense that this would work just as well. Of course that's assuming you survive the lynch mobs and death threats that would come with the territory.

Yeah.... I get that.  It's a mechanical question.  Personally it wouldn't bother me all that much to do it, but I understand why others haven't.  I am more curious about the mechanical side of it.  But seriously, if people were concerned about the rarity they wouldn't still be doing field work with them.... and several of them are still in use.  (Which is fine!)

 

And no one has answered the real question, which is what is the front axle drive ratio difference.  I guess I'll just have to sit down and figure it out.  Not that I expected anyone to do it for me, because I didn't.  I was just hoping someone knew.  But that was a high hope as the 70'S are so rare.  Not many people know much of anything about them.  

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I forgot to tell you guys that as far as I know the Super 70's had the transmission up dates done because they were built after all the 50 series problems . Mike Links and I have had this conversation about the updates and he does all these tranny updates and he told me that the 1984 model 50 series didn't have them . I am not sure anymore on that service bulletin from back in the day of the updates done on the last 50 series that IH did . But I will be clear , Mike knows from the updates he has done that a least some of the late model 50 series didn't have all the updated stuff in the speed tranny . I do have the IH/Case IH service bulletins in the service library and I need to see if I can find that one on the 50 series updates .

Just so all of you know the Magnum I did has its own center pivot , it resembles the 70 series and the rear half is very close to the same but the front half has the bolt pattern to match up to the 2 generation adaptor/side frames they did after the merger for the Magnum . 

If I only had that last 70 series center pivot housing you guys would see the 5388 getting its next update to the 7688 powershift 😎

Hope this helps , Danny 

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37 minutes ago, DirtBoyz07 said:

Just so all of you know the Magnum I did has its own center pivot , it resembles the 70 series and the rear half is very close to the same but the front half has the bolt pattern to match up to the 2 generation adaptor/side frames they did after the merger for the Magnum . 

If I only had that last 70 series center pivot housing you guys would see the 5388 getting its next update to the 7688 powershift 😎

Hope this helps , Danny 

That does help.  Thanks! 

I had wanted to ask you that before, as someone sent me a link to your thread, but I wasn't a member here yet.  Just out of my own curiosity, was it cast? Or welded together since it was a prototype?  

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Danny, I'm guessing you are referring to IH bulletin S-4800, which lists all the changes with the 50 series speed transmission updates. It does list tractor serial #s that were supposed to be when the changes occurred, but those serial#s are for 50 series tractors that were never built. An example is the 5488 serial # listed is SN#4460, the one shown in all the IH info as being the last tractor produced at Farmall is SN#4452. I'm guessing Farmall was going to use all the old parts in stock at the plant before the changes were put into production....and then IH ag was sold to Tenneco...and the rest is history as they say. According to this bulletin, it is doubtful any 50 series left the plant with the updated parts.

As far as the 70 series; I wonder if they did have the updated parts when they were built? I'm guessing most of the 70 series were built in the summer of 1984 so that IH had numerous tractors available to show at the farm shows in the fall of 1984. Probably a pilot production run or preproduction run at the plant to make sure the assembly line didn't have an unforeseen problems during manufacturing?

S-4800 #1.PNG

S-4800 #2.PNG

S-4800 #3.PNG

S-4800 #4.PNG

S-4800 #5.PNG

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 Pic of a 1/4th scale mock up of a "Generation III".  The other pic is a artist's conception CIH 7144.  These pics are from IH archives.  l don't have a copy but l think they are also in the Red 4WD book.

2+2 gen lll.JPG

2+2 gen lV.JPG

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I'm thinking this is the other side of the 70 series powershift /5488 as I have shown all of you the 50 series front end bolted to the IH power-shift transmission just like the ones in the pictures . I would need to talk to the guys directly involved  at the time of the merger / IH side , that the powershift was going into the 70 series along with the single door IH cab .

Remember the hopeless Case boys had nothing to do with what your seeing in these pictures , it was all IH  😎😎 The conversions were done to the already completed IH tractor that we would of seen reliesed to the public in early fall of 1985 but there was a Tenneco buy out !!!

Danny 

image.jpeg

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IDK about you but I like the look of that 5488 than the Magnum.....

 

 

Was this prototype ever produced or is it just a drawing?

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Interesting read so far I’m learning a lot. 

On 12/28/2018 at 8:19 AM, DirtBoyz07 said:

The deal was Case had all the 4 wheel drives sitting all over the USA and no one bought them so the shut down the super 70's and gave away those 94 series cases . 

I have somewhat of a dumb question but since I wasn’t around during the time I’m curious about this....  

Why were the super 70’s scraped after the merger? 

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3 hours ago, DirtBoyz07 said:

I'm thinking this is the other side of the 70 series powershift /5488 as I have shown all of you the 50 series front end bolted to the IH power-shift transmission just like the ones in the pictures . I would need to talk to the guys directly involved  at the time of the merger / IH side , that the powershift was going into the 70 series along with the single door IH cab .

Remember the hopeless Case boys had nothing to do with what your seeing in these pictures , it was all IH  😎😎 The conversions were done to the already completed IH tractor that we would of seen reliesed to the public in early fall of 1985 but there was a Tenneco buy out !!!

Danny 

image.jpeg

#%&$@#*&% those Tenneco guys. Wish we had more pictures of that 54.

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3 hours ago, DirtBoyz07 said:

I'm thinking this is the other side of the 70 series powershift /5488 as I have shown all of you the 50 series front end bolted to the IH power-shift transmission just like the ones in the pictures . I would need to talk to the guys directly involved  at the time of the merger / IH side , that the powershift was going into the 70 series along with the single door IH cab .

Remember the hopeless Case boys had nothing to do with what your seeing in these pictures , it was all IH  😎😎 The conversions were done to the already completed IH tractor that we would of seen reliesed to the public in early fall of 1985 but there was a Tenneco buy out !!!

Danny 

image.jpeg

Boy I'd love to see the interior of that cab.

 

Edit: The top pic Twostepn posted is the one I was thinking of and mentioned earlier in the thread

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