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Does the 291 and 301 block have anything in common?


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George , Federal Mogal offers the engine kits for the 400 series and I have been getting them from our machine shop in Rochester MN . Check with your local machine shop and they might beable to get them for you , if not let me know .

J Mech , you can use those kits and it's your choice , I'm not here to argue , just don't want to see guys have to do stuff twice because of poor quality parts . I find it had to believe all these guys I know from all over the country having the same issues with Reliance that all these guys don't know how to put engines together ? I have done many motors over the last 35 plus years and never had an issue with any of my motors I've done .

Now today I'm supposed to measure , hone , check bearings for off set , tolerance , double and triple check this stuff I'm buying from an after market company that has chosen to have it all built in China , I personally will pass , just my 2 cents , sorry .

Danny 

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Danny: But for the C263 engine who other than Reliance offers a kit?  I cant find anyone else other than Reliance. And I hear the CIH kit on rumor is also Reliance. That may not be true however? If there is an alternate supplier for a C263 engine I need to know soon as I intend to purchase soon. I realize if I buy Reliance that there will be a good micrometer job and the major clearance dimensions will all need to be checked before and after. I also realize there are several suppliers for the 400 series engine but that is not the engine being overhauled. Comments will be appreciated. Thanks.   

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9 hours ago, George 2 said:

Danny: But for the C263 engine who other than Reliance offers a kit?  I cant find anyone else other than Reliance. And I hear the CIH kit on rumor is also Reliance. That may not be true however? If there is an alternate supplier for a C263 engine I need to know soon as I intend to purchase soon. I realize if I buy Reliance that there will be a good micrometer job and the major clearance dimensions will all need to be checked before and after. I also realize there are several suppliers for the 400 series engine but that is not the engine being overhauled. Comments will be appreciated. Thanks.   

I bet you don't have a problem...............Guys I use to do my head work for green weenies uses nothing but reliance and he stands behind his stuff.  I disagree with the above comments, no matter who built it you should be doing the measurements and checking everything close.  Like an old head in the one machineshop told me when I was learning, "Son, we measure and re-measure even if the Pope built it, because it still could be wrong"................

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If you have no choice on kits other than Reliance then you need to double check everything , I would have a machine shop install the sleeves and let them run there boring bar down the hole after there installed and let them fit each piston to the correct hole . Measure each piston , it's the only thing you can do , it's to bad it's this way .

Goid luck , Danny 

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37 minutes ago, TP from Central PA said:

I bet you don't have a problem...............Guys I use to do my head work for green weenies uses nothing but reliance and he stands behind his stuff.  I disagree with the above comments, no matter who built it you should be doing the measurements and checking everything close.  Like an old head in the one machineshop told me when I was learning, "Son, we measure and re-measure even if the Pope built it, because it still could be wrong"................

Agreed.  Manufacturing mistakes happen.  A good tech will catch them.  I AM NOT saying that a good tech doesn't also make mistakes.  But I've seen good techs be quick to blame parts when there was a different issue.  I've only had one or maybe two engines I built fail.  (That come to mind.) After careful teardown and inspection, they were either mistakes on my part, or circumstances beyond my control.  One failure that comes to mind was a block that had metal stuck in an oil galley.  Ruined a bearing.  Block was properly cleaned, but sometimes you do your best and things still happen.  I've caught manufacturing and even workmanship errors by machine shops... and I've made errors.... it happens.  But to say a company as large as Reliance makes bad parts is just hard for me to swallow.  Deere guys swear by them, as stated, and this is the first time I've heard anyone cuss their parts.  Just my opinion, and I'm not passing judgement on anyone.  Just questioning the root cause of the failures mentioned. 

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Thanks to everyone for their excellent comments. I now feel safe to order my overhaul set from A&I. The CIH dealer will install them and I have already had the conversation with their service manager about the checks I want done. The manager is in full agreement about doing them on dry sleeve engines. The mandatory checks start when the parts are still in the box and you check the gap between the unringed piston and sleeve. The next check is the ID of the tractor block bore with the old sleeves removed. Then honing of block if necessary. Then check OD of new sleeves and best match to the block bore hole diameters. Install the new sleeves ( cold freezer and fill water jacket with max block heater temperature ). With a hot water jacket and cold sleeves, the new sleeves will hopefully slide in without using heavy force to drive them in. After they are in and seated check dimensions as per the IH service manual. Then install the unringed piston and check diametral and radial clearances between individual piston and each individual sleeve to ensure they match the values in the IH service manual. If OK install the rings and continue with reassembly of engine. If there is reduced clearance they will need a solid hone to hone to the correct sleeve ID clearance. Then continue with reassembly of engine after ensuring the engine crank turns freely. 

Any other things to do that I missed? 

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I am a distributor for reliance. Last spring we overhauled a c-301 engine and the piston pin keepers had no tension, they acted like they were made out of baling wire. I used the old ones. The rod bearings also needed some scrapping. China, the land of almost right.

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3 hours ago, George 2 said:

Thanks to everyone for their excellent comments. I now feel safe to order my overhaul set from A&I. The CIH dealer will install them and I have already had the conversation with their service manager about the checks I want done. The manager is in full agreement about doing them on dry sleeve engines. The mandatory checks start when the parts are still in the box and you check the gap between the unringed piston and sleeve. The next check is the ID of the tractor block bore with the old sleeves removed. Then honing of block if necessary. Then check OD of new sleeves and best match to the block bore hole diameters. Install the new sleeves ( cold freezer and fill water jacket with max block heater temperature ). With a hot water jacket and cold sleeves, the new sleeves will hopefully slide in without using heavy force to drive them in. After they are in and seated check dimensions as per the IH service manual. Then install the unringed piston and check diametral and radial clearances between individual piston and each individual sleeve to ensure they match the values in the IH service manual. If OK install the rings and continue with reassembly of engine. If there is reduced clearance they will need a solid hone to hone to the correct sleeve ID clearance. Then continue with reassembly of engine after ensuring the engine crank turns freely. 

Any other things to do that I missed? 

Yes dont use the IH book for piston to cylinder wall clearance reference.  You will never get away with .001 clearance on a Reliance piston!  I believe if I recall the tolerance in the book is .001-.007.

Scott

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Well, my sleeve and piston set arrived much quicker than I expected. I don't have the gas engine service manual . it's number is IH-GSS-1387 and I would like to do a little inspection of them prior to paying for them. It is OK with the A&I dealer . So I would need for the C263 engine the piston to sleeve skirt clearance (radial clearance, ovality, and taper limits for new items in the box). I would be appreciative to anyone who can send me these numbers before 10:00 AM tomorrow as I am supposed to pick them up then.   j

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that info wont do you no good until you install the liners measure and fit each piston and use a ridgid hone to fit up clearances ,but here are skirt to liner clearance .0010 - .0045 ,inside diameter of new liner iz 3.5593 - 3.5618

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Thanks Don. Really appreciate those numbers. I spoke to my CIH dealer this morning and they confirm from IH-GSS-1387 that the skirt to liner clearance you quote is correct. Similar for new liner ID. They also gave me the OD for new liner. Now as said above with Reliance pistons you will want to solid hone to get a clearance on the top side of somewhere around the .004 to -.005 on the skirt to liner or else it will lock up. That is really an issue for the machinist doing the work for me. However, acceptance from the supplier with something in the .001 range is my issue with the supplier today. I will find out what they are when I check them later today and I will reject any tight ones. They have extra sets in their warehouse.    

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On ‎1‎/‎10‎/‎2019 at 7:55 AM, DirtBoyz07 said:

If you have no choice on kits other than Reliance then you need to double check everything , I would have a machine shop install the sleeves and let them run there boring bar down the hole after there installed and let them fit each piston to the correct hole . Measure each piston , it's the only thing you can do , it's to bad it's this way .

Goid luck , Danny 

I am fortunate to have a machinist from a proper engine rebuild shop doing the work and an align bore boring bar is a good idea. I will ask him to do that also after they are installed. I agree this is a sad situation with only one indeterminate quality supplier of the kits being available. Need more domestic made parts. On a good note, I was able to get a NOS IH oil pump for this engine from Bates this week. It was the only one they had. They are not available from CIH any more (379138R91).     

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30 minutes ago, George 2 said:

Thanks Don. Really appreciate those numbers. I spoke to my CIH dealer this morning and they confirm from IH-GSS-1387 that the skirt to liner clearance you quote is correct. Similar for new liner ID. They also gave me the OD for new liner. Now as said above with Reliance pistons you will want to solid hone to get a clearance on the top side of somewhere around the .004 to -.005 on the skirt to liner or else it will lock up. That is really an issue for the machinist doing the work for me. However, acceptance from the supplier with something in the .001 range is my issue with the supplier today. I will find out what they are when I check them later today and I will reject any tight ones. They have extra sets in their warehouse.    

The clearance for piston as listed in GSS1387 is for pistons made  years ago everybody's pistons are made different today use the clearance the piston supplier wants, your going to blame them if it scores. This clearance problem on 6  cyl IH engines goes way back to when IH no longer had Zollner pistons , The IH kits then came with Jahns pistons and we had plenty of scoring problems so much they recalled the kits. About that time I started to use aftermarketkits so I did not follow up on what was changed when the kits were rereleased. 

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Well today was my lucky day. I received the set and all of the upper and lower skirts in all every 90 degrees were in the .004 to .005 values. It took me over an hour to measure them all on the vendors work desk. I was impressed with the smoothness of the finish on the pistons and sleeves as compared to the Zollners I encountered in the 706 back  40 years ago. I am not sure where they were made as the name was not familiar to me. They were manufactured within the last year as per the date code. All in all, I think we will be ok once the machinist has solid honed the sleeves after installation to fit properly. The rest of the set (rod bearings, oil pan gasket, and upper gaskets), appear to all be American made. The rod bearings were made by Clevite division of Mahle in the USA. The oil pan gasket also came from Mahle from somewhere in MS, USA. The upper gaskets were quoted as packaged in USA by A&I with components from USA, China, India, Taiwan, etc and packaged in the last 4 months. Nowhere, did I see the Reliance name or trademark on any of the components. I think I will be ok with this set. It is now up to the skill of the machinist in getting a proper post installation fit of the sleeves and the pistons. And as we all know fitting dry sleeves is a skill that good machinists have. So here is to hoping the installation goes well. I will provide an update after the installation has been done and the tractor is running. I intend to give it a good break in on the dynamometer at my CIH dealer's shop before putting it back to work next spring. The only thing I didn't like was the round snap rings used to hold the wrist pins in place. I will not use these and will substitute the rectangular snap rings as supplied by CIH if they fit properly.    

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I wouldn't worry, I have been using A&I parts a lot with the down turn in AG, everyone wants to save money.........I have yet to be upset with any of the engine parts to this point, and I have not had any boomerangs either.  Of all I purchased in 2018, the only duds were 2 light switches for IH....and they replaced them and the replacements were fine.  I assume by the packaging the first ones were made by someone else, than the later ones that were better packed and seemed to have better QC.

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I just put 2 and 2 together and I think I got 4 ………….😎 you called me last week about new parts for this tractor last week George. We talked for a great length. Once again good talking to you!

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1 hour ago, George 2 said:

Well today was my lucky day. I received the set and all of the upper and lower skirts in all every 90 degrees were in the .004 to .005 values. It took me over an hour to measure them all on the vendors work desk. I was impressed with the smoothness of the finish on the pistons and sleeves as compared to the Zollners I encountered in the 706 back  40 years ago. I am not sure where they were made as the name was not familiar to me. They were manufactured within the last year as per the date code. All in all, I think we will be ok once the machinist has solid honed the sleeves after installation to fit properly. The rest of the set (rod bearings, oil pan gasket, and upper gaskets), appear to all be American made. The rod bearings were made by Clevite division of Mahle in the USA. The oil pan gasket also came from Mahle from somewhere in MS, USA. The upper gaskets were quoted as packaged in USA by A&I with components from USA, China, India, Taiwan, etc and packaged in the last 4 months. Nowhere, did I see the Reliance name or trademark on any of the components. I think I will be ok with this set. It is now up to the skill of the machinist in getting a proper post installation fit of the sleeves and the pistons. And as we all know fitting dry sleeves is a skill that good machinists have. So here is to hoping the installation goes well. I will provide an update after the installation has been done and the tractor is running. I intend to give it a good break in on the dynamometer at my CIH dealer's shop before putting it back to work next spring. The only thing I didn't like was the round snap rings used to hold the wrist pins in place. I will not use these and will substitute the rectangular snap rings as supplied by CIH if they fit properly.    

The last ones I got from reliance had no temper and I usedthe old piston pin retainers.

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On ‎1‎/‎5‎/‎2019 at 8:31 AM, DirtBoyz07 said:

I with you on the installation of stuff , checking clearances , installing dry sleeves corrects , prepping the block . There again everyone has there own way and I was very luck to be trained buy the guys at IH so I got the so called correct way to do stuff . I guess what I'm trying to say is I'm not a fan of China built stuff . For quality I prefer using OEM or stuff made here on our dirt , then if I need help there here not overseas .

If you guys can use OEM or Federal Mogal kits it will save you a lot of time and headache , do it . If you can't get anything but a Reliance kit make sure you measure everything , check every bearing tolerance on installation , heat up the pistons  in the oven and remeasure them , this will save you from doing it again and I know how it is getting any help from the aftermarket company .

Hope this helps with some of your questions , Danny 

TENNECO NOW OWNS FEDERAL MOGAL AS OF OCTOBER 2018

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1 hour ago, hillman said:

I just put 2 and 2 together and I think I got 4 ………….😎 you called me last week about new parts for this tractor last week George. We talked for a great length. Once again good talking to you!

Well I didn't realize that until now either. It was great talking to you also. Lots of common experience. I will buy new wrist pin snap rings from CIH but I will say they sure are pricey from CIH. I would hate to have to buy the whole overhaul set from CIH as they would cost a fortune.  

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