Ian Beale

An Observation for the Fuel Debate

Recommended Posts

We've just acquired a 7 kva alternator/welder powered by a Honda GV 390 made by Honda Thailand.

Second commandment on the startup list on the air cleaner is

"2.  Use only unleaded fuel (No E10)"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

so you should start sourcing the not allowed in USA kit for the carb and lines.   because you are going to receive  E 10-50 when they simply dump it in

wiped out 3 of my units   $150 each and still not right

specifically after I sourced  e free   ,fine print says not responsible for content or cross contamination.

one store now has e 20-50 (cheap) $1.10 ish  they installed ALL new pumps where it is separate lines,dispenser bank.

notice says   on other 3 hoses variable addition of E 5-10-15  in regular 87 and extra 89/90 tank with out notice at any time, super 91 + is still $3 +

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Ian Beale said:

Use only unleaded fue

Av-gas.

best, randy

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don’t think the ethanol itself is going to harm anything. The problem I have seen has to do with the jetting on these wonderful EPA blessed engines. To comply with the government emissions rules, the manufactures have jetted the engines to run as lean as they can on regular gasoline. Running any significant amount of ethanol on that jetting will result in the engine running a little too lean with the potential problems associated with it. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
38 minutes ago, Gearclash said:

I don’t think the ethanol itself is going to harm anything. The problem I have seen has to do with the jetting on these wonderful EPA blessed engines. To comply with the government emissions rules, the manufactures have jetted the engines to run as lean as they can on regular gasoline. Running any significant amount of ethanol on that jetting will result in the engine running a little too lean with the potential problems associated with it. 

A fix for that  is to take out your main jet (easy on a Honda - I haven't tried any others) and get your oxy tip cleaners.  Find the one where the shank just goes into the jet hole and then work the rasp through.  They seem to like that treatment - stuff the EPA's of the world.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Me I'll just run non ethanol fuel in everything I legally can. All my small engines, my out board motor. Our state has been trying to get rid of the state mandate for ethanol. They get closer to passing it every year. Really hate having to burn ethanol in road vehicles. I feel I should be able to choose what I put into stuff I pay for.

 

Rick

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Why so much hate for homegrown American fuel??? I'll burn ethanol and deal with it's very few quirks long before buying foreign oil.....

Everyone blames ethanol for there fuel problem, let me ask one question,. If it TRUELY was the problem, did you NEVER  have fuel problems before 2008 or so????

I recall lots of people having fuel issue pre ethanol, what was the scape goat back then????

I used to burn E30 in my 2011, 22HP V-twin lawn mower, sold it to my sister in 2015, it's still mowing grass.....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, brahamfireman said:

Why so much hate for homegrown American fuel??? I'll burn ethanol and deal with it's very few quirks long before buying foreign oil.....

Everyone blames ethanol for there fuel problem, let me ask one question,. If it TRUELY was the problem, did you NEVER  have fuel problems before 2008 or so????

I recall lots of people having fuel issue pre ethanol, what was the scape goat back then????

Iowa has had ethanol since the 80s i believe. Used to run it religiously to support farmers. Started seeing what i believe are problems with it and no longer run it if i can help it.

Its fine in daily drivers other than the reduced fuel mileage. But in stuff that doesnt get run very much or in long term storage i believe that it evaporates out and the additve to keep it in suspension with gas turns to mush and settles out, causing multiple problems.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 minutes ago, iowaboy1965 said:

Iowa has had ethanol since the 80s i believe. Used to run it religiously to support farmers. Started seeing what i believe are problems with it and no longer run it if i can help it.

Its fine in daily drivers other than the reduced fuel mileage. But in stuff that doesnt get run very much or in long term storage i believe that it evaporates out and the additve to keep it in suspension with gas turns to mush and settles out, causing multiple problems.

Your problem again isnt the ethanol,  it's the absolute crap base stock gas. Refiners aren't blending nice 89 octane with ethanol, they're blending 50-60 octane gas with 110 octane ethanol,  netting the 85-91 octane seen at the pumps.

Anyone will tell you, anything left in storage should be stored with empty gas tank or fuel stabilizer.  Just the nature of dealing with any gas...  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What people overlook is that ethanol is VERY high in octane content. It doesn't take much to significantly raise the octane rating, say 10%, and it is much cheaper to source than quality refined gasoline...

See where I'm going with this? The blenders are using garbage gasoline,  spiking it with ethanol to pass the octane test. The garbage gasoline has higher concentrations of lower carbon count hydrocarbon chains such as heptanes, hexanes, pentanes, butanes, etc.. Hexane in particular is widely used to EXTRACT OILS from seeds, but would also extract oils from oil-based products such as RUBBER and PLASTICS, thereby degrading them... Hmm?

I keep saying that I'm going to buy a bottle of Everclear, which is 98% pure ethanol, and throw a chunk of rubber fuel hose and all my leftover carburetor parts in it, to see what REALLY happens. My hypothesis is, nothing will happen.

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Matt Kirsch said:

 

I keep saying that I'm going to buy a bottle of Everclear, which is 98% pure ethanol, and throw a chunk of rubber fuel hose and all my leftover carburetor parts in it, to see what REALLY happens. My hypothesis is, nothing will happen.

I bet if it's old rubber it'll break down.

Diesel will make rubber swell.

Along that line, why would manufacturers of small engines spend the money for vinton rubber when they can just put No E10 on cap, and pin the fuel problems on the owner, VS paying out for warranty work caused by bad gas????

Marketing 101 people.....its ALWAYS the consumers fault.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, brahamfireman said:

Why so much hate for homegrown American fuel??? I'll burn ethanol and deal with it's very few quirks long before buying foreign oil.....

Everyone blames ethanol for there fuel problem, let me ask one question,. If it TRUELY was the problem, did you NEVER  have fuel problems before 2008 or so????

I recall lots of people having fuel issue pre ethanol, what was the scape goat back then????

I used to burn E30 in my 2011, 22HP V-twin lawn mower, sold it to my sister in 2015, it's still mowing grass.....

Well there are lots of reasons to hate it. Reduced economy (sorry you can't argue with BTUs) Causing more pollution than it saves? At least that's what current research  by the environmentalist suggest. Back door subsidy because of forced use. I can see a lot more reasons to hate than I can to like it. Heck we have oil reserves that are untapped and if tapped would reduce our dependence on foreign oil farm more that ethanol does. Sorry. farmers can grow other crops.

 

Rick

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Matt Kirsch said:

What people overlook is that ethanol is VERY high in octane content. It doesn't take much to significantly raise the octane rating, say 10%, and it is much cheaper to source than quality refined gasoline...

See where I'm going with this? The blenders are using garbage gasoline,  spiking it with ethanol to pass the octane test. The garbage gasoline has higher concentrations of lower carbon count hydrocarbon chains such as heptanes, hexanes, pentanes, butanes, etc.. Hexane in particular is widely used to EXTRACT OILS from seeds, but would also extract oils from oil-based products such as RUBBER and PLASTICS, thereby degrading them... Hmm?

I keep saying that I'm going to buy a bottle of Everclear, which is 98% pure ethanol, and throw a chunk of rubber fuel hose and all my leftover carburetor parts in it, to see what REALLY happens. My hypothesis is, nothing will happen.

Good theory. Be fun watching you prove it. 

1 hour ago, brahamfireman said:

I bet if it's old rubber it'll break down.

Diesel will make rubber swell.

Along that line, why would manufacturers of small engines spend the money for vinton rubber when they can just put No E10 on cap, and pin the fuel problems on the owner, VS paying out for warranty work caused by bad gas????

Marketing 101 people.....its ALWAYS the consumers fault.

Got proof of that? IF you do turn it over to the US attorney general and the EPA. THey would love to rake the small engine makers over this.

 

Rick 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, brahamfireman said:

Your problem again isnt the ethanol,  it's the absolute crap base stock gas. Refiners aren't blending nice 89 octane with ethanol, they're blending 50-60 octane gas with 110 octane ethanol,  netting the 85-91 octane seen at the pumps.

Anyone will tell you, anything left in storage should be stored with empty gas tank or fuel stabilizer.  Just the nature of dealing with any gas...  

Result is the same wether its ethanol , junk gass, or additive. Therfore i avoid e10 gas. Problems i noticed were wifes car driven 3 days a week started seeing gravel,  mud like substance in her fuel filter when i changed it yearly.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 hours ago, Ian Beale said:

We've just acquired a 7 kva alternator/welder powered by a Honda GV 390 made by Honda Thailand.

Second commandment on the startup list on the air cleaner is

"2.  Use only unleaded fuel (No E10)"

Forgot to say..........I bought a pressure washer this past spring powered by a Honda engine. Says "NO Ethonal" on it too. Then the new boat with 90HP 4 stroke fuel injected outboard. OEM recommendation is while that engine is rated for E10 use Ethanol free gas if possible. 

Rick

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So oils never had a subdidy???

Gas has way less btu 's than diesel, so by your " I won't use it because of less energy" be you should be using gas either.....

Adapt to an ever changing world or get left behind....

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, oldtanker said:

Sorry. farmers can grow other crops.

 

Rick

WOW, you just made alot of friends...

People get so blinded by the thought that no new theory or ideas are possible,  that they think the old tried and true way is the only way.

Ask the people way back when that said kerosene would never replace whale oil, or that gas would never replace kerosene., how there stocj in the past says worked.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, iowaboy1965 said:

Result is the same wether its ethanol , junk gass, or additive. Therfore i avoid e10 gas. Problems i noticed were wifes car driven 3 days a week started seeing gravel,  mud like substance in her fuel filter when i changed it yearly.

I think Iowaboy put it best.  Ethanol properly blended with good gas is probably just fine.  Unfortunately that is not what we get on the East coast anyway.  Sounds like some fuel in the midwest may be better than what we get.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Our old 2006 Wacker trash pump with a little Honda GX 120 K1 QX specs regular unleaded fuel. Actually has worked on whatever fuel that we put in it.

Sort of like a welder but it always pumps at max rpm.  Does not have many hours on it worked fine on last use.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We had no problems until we got ethanol blends . Our one mechanic had worked for various fuel service company's (built fuel trucks etc) and he saw various problems. One of the stupidest things was EPA mandated all fuel tanks be replaced at stations with fiberglass ones instead of the steel ones formerly used. The ethonol eats through the one part of the fiberglass tank...... The ethonol is far less efficient a local mechanic warned me about this after running some in his motorcycle and getting much worse mileage. 

What is it in the gasoline now that wasn't there before that will take a new fuel tank on a small engine and over winter it turns to poop like stuff and the tank is completely rusty

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, oldtanker said:

Well there are lots of reasons to hate it. Reduced economy (sorry you can't argue with BTUs) Causing more pollution than it saves? At least that's what current research  by the environmentalist suggest. Back door subsidy because of forced use. I can see a lot more reasons to hate than I can to like it. Heck we have oil reserves that are untapped and if tapped would reduce our dependence on foreign oil farm more that ethanol does. Sorry. farmers can grow other crops.

 

Rick

I used to think the exact same thing you do.  Now I see ethanol as a lever against big oil.  Big oil will have no problem screwing us the consumers. I think many of the down sides of ethanol are exaggerations promoted by the oil industry.  I don’t expect or even want ethanol to replace oil, but we need ethanol as the most environmentally friendly oxygenate and as a threat to keep big oil on their toes.  I fail to understand the all the hype either way about ethanol. Might as well as ****h about gas vs diesel. Use it where it works, don’t use it where it doesn’t.    

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The other thing , as i think rick alluded to is it takes as much energy to make etnanol as we supposedly save by using it so from what i gather it does little if anything to conserve gas. From what i gather bio diesel is more energy efficient to make, tho it has other issues.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, iowaboy1965 said:

The other thing , as i think rick alluded to is it takes ans much energy to make etnanol as we supposedly save by using it so from what i gather it does littleif anything to conserve gas. From what i gather boi diesel is more energy efficient to make, tho it has other issues.

An interesting twist on the energy used to make ethanol is the possibility of using wet or hydrous ethanol in diesel engines as a dual fuel.  Hydrous ethanol does not have all the water distilled out of it, which makes it much cheaper per gallon, and increases the ignition point enough that it can be injected in a diesel engine during the intake stroke and ignited with the diesel fuel injection.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Im not gona suggest its as easy as rick makes it sound to just grow something else. I think we all includinng rick know if there isnt an established market it will be anything but easy to switch to something else. Can be done and we might all be better off if there were more crop options with a market for them.but not easy at this time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I burn E-10 in everything i own from the chainsaw and half dozen weed eaters to the lawn mower and cars. Can honestly say i have never had an issue with anything fuel related. I dont do anything special at the end of the seasons either. Just park the mower and hang up the trimmers(yes i hang them upside down too- oh the horror!!). I dont use any additives for storage either. Top off the tanks in the spring and go to work.

I am a cheap a$$ and the E10 is the cheapest gas locally.

Base gas is 84 octane.

Blend it 50/50 with 91 octane to get the 87 octane you see at the pump.

Blend 84 octane with 10% ethanol and you get 87E10.

I believe many problems lead back to the base gas and whats NOT in it anymore. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now