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7secondmalibu

1660 Auger Issues

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This thing is driving me crazy!!   The auger goes in and out fine in the beginning of the day.  If I work in the field for a few hours it no longer retracts.  This is the 3rd or 4th time I had to leave it out in the field overnight.  The next morning I return, start the combine up and it retracts like there was nothing ever wrong.  At the end of the day, you can hear it laboring when I move the switch on the steering column. So it's not an electrical problem as far as the switches for the auger position, it's trying to move as you can hear it.  Auger is well lubed.  Like I said, the next day it simply returns like there never was a problem. 

I have 2 ideas... When I run all day and the hydraulic fluid heats up and either the valve grows and begins to stick or as it heats up the oil viscosity gets thinner and it leaks past the seal in the cylinder. The problem with the 2nd option is that it goes out fine.  So if the piston is an oring seal then that doesn't make sense.  If the piston has a double lip seal, maybe the lip seal on the return side is bad?

Again, end of the day you can hear it labor so to me electrically everything is fine.  Something mechanically is hanging it up.  I'm leaning towards the valve.  Any other ideas or things to check?  Problem is I'm done for the season so it's not like I can go run it for the day to check when it hangs up and see if I fixed it.

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If it’s mounted with rod side hooked to auger it has twice the power to go out than it does pulling because of square inch difference in piston and rod side 

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49 minutes ago, 7secondmalibu said:

This thing is driving me crazy!!   The auger goes in and out fine in the beginning of the day.  If I work in the field for a few hours it no longer retracts.  This is the 3rd or 4th time I had to leave it out in the field overnight.  The next morning I return, start the combine up and it retracts like there was nothing ever wrong.  At the end of the day, you can hear it laboring when I move the switch on the steering column. So it's not an electrical problem as far as the switches for the auger position, it's trying to move as you can hear it.  Auger is well lubed.  Like I said, the next day it simply returns like there never was a problem. 

I have 2 ideas... When I run all day and the hydraulic fluid heats up and either the valve grows and begins to stick or as it heats up the oil viscosity gets thinner and it leaks past the seal in the cylinder. The problem with the 2nd option is that it goes out fine.  So if the piston is an oring seal then that doesn't make sense.  If the piston has a double lip seal, maybe the lip seal on the return side is bad?

Again, end of the day you can hear it labor so to me electrically everything is fine.  Something mechanically is hanging it up.  I'm leaning towards the valve.  Any other ideas or things to check?  Problem is I'm done for the season so it's not like I can go run it for the day to check when it hangs up and see if I fixed it.

I had a 1640 I bought new with that kind of trouble,  The Dealer came & pulled the valve & found a small speck of something in it.

Blew it out and no more trouble.

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42 minutes ago, ky966boy said:

If it’s mounted with rod side hooked to auger it has twice the power to go out than it does pulling because of square inch difference in piston and rod side 

Yes, I considered that as well.  We deal with that at work a lot with wedge locks on machines.  The side with the rod has less surface area then the side with only the piston.  So with pneumatic locks we always run about 1/2 the PSI on the pistons side as we do the shafted side so we don't stick the wedges.  But with this auger we are not wedging and it runs fine the very next day.  The fact that it runs fine the very next day, makes me think it's got plenty of power to move the auger both in and out.  So why does it chose to not retract late in the day, but early in the day, all is well.

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57 minutes ago, 664 CDN said:

I had a 1640 I bought new with that kind of trouble,  The Dealer came & pulled the valve & found a small speck of something in it.

Blew it out and no more trouble.

This is the direction I'm leaning towards this off season.  It won't cost me anything to take it apart and clean it real good.  Just wondering if there are any other ideas as well.

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Your maybe right about oil getting hot if your pump or relief vavles are getting weak ,never seen directional vavle effected by that though does auger have it’s on relief for both directions 

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I think That your relief valve  is low on pressure  a when the oil is hot it doesn't  have enough pressure to pull it in.

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Thanks everyone for the replies!!  The relief valve sounds like it could be the issue.  My guess is the spring gets hot from running all day long so the relief opens earlier then when it's cold.  Since it requires less pressure to extend the auger because of the piston surface area, it swings out fine with the reduced pressure.  But to return it there is not enough piston area to push on due to the rod being on that side of the piston.  So that coupled with the reduced pressure from the relief valve opening sooner could be causing this issue.  I see some people are putting a small washer in to increase spring tension.  I think this winter I'll remove the directional valve and clean it real well and most importantly clean the pressure relief valve and shim the spring.  Hopefully next year I'm not stuck in the middle of the field.

Thanks again for the replies.

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How does the steering act? The same relief valve for the unloading auger swing circuit is also the relief valve for the steering....as well as reel lift, and reel fore & aft if you have it.

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on my 1480s and 2188 it takes forever for the unloads to fold in, but for some reason when the steering is locked left they have all moved fast. Don't seem to work to right, only left.  Been that way as long as I remember. Don't recall if my 915 was like that or not.  Sure someone will have an explanation.

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5 hours ago, SDman said:

How does the steering act? The same relief valve for the unloading auger swing circuit is also the relief valve for the steering....as well as reel lift, and reel fore & aft if you have it.

If I'm not moving for the most part it steers and moves the wheels fine as long as I have a head on the machine.  But on rare occasion when not moving the steering wheel kind of jerks in my hands as I try to turn the steering wheel and I can hear the same higher pitch noise.  But to be honest, the only time I steer when I'm not moving is backing it out of the shed first thing in the morning.  I never really tried it at the end of the day when I experience auger issues.  If the auger is returned, I just drive it in and park it.  Usually I'm stuck in the field with the auger out and then I park it till the next day.  That next day I fire it up, give it just a little bit of throttle and in she goes.

My dad is all over me because he's been googling this and thinks its the auger return switch.  He doesn't hear the same high pitch noise I hear in the cab when trying to return.  Something is being energized without any doubt in my mind.  I can hear it.  My guess is if it was a bad return switch the valve would not energize to even try to return so I would never hear the noise I hear now.  Everything would be quiet.  We are going to move the auger out and he is going to hold the switch to see if I have that same noise.  If that noise is still there, maybe if both switches are on at the same time it does something electronically I'm not expecting.  I'm thinking both switches on, it's quiet and nothing moves.  Maybe I'm wrong.

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Are the switches working correctly it’s not thinking it’s in when it’s out we went through a lot of those switches on the 1680

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Here's a couple pictures showing the location of the secondary relief valve and showing the parts in it. Bet you'll find it is just stuck. Rather common issue. Good luck!

1600 series valve stack.PNG

1600 series relief valve.PNG

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Its not the switch or the wires if it works cold.    Easy enough to test, should have 11-13V on #3 & #8.

Hydraulically: Its a 2 way valve function (7&8) with a master for pressure (#3 above).   The fact that you hear the pressure "trying" means that its trying to fire the master.   

It can only be one of three things:

1) Master is not closing properly, or relief is opening at too low a pressure when hot, as stated above.  A pressure test would tell you is this is the case.

2) Valve #8 is sticking shut when hot.  This means pressure is not getting to the cylinder.

3) A weird internal cylinder leak when hot...only leaks one way bad enough to keep it from moving. 

I'd pull and clean those valves.  I've seen them with a little ridge worn into them that makes them stick.  Use a fine sandpaper to remove any ridges. 

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My 1460 is having a similar problem. The auger swings good in the morning but slows down during the day, sometimes it quits while out. Mine is a two stick mechanical hydraulic system though. When this happens the header and reel lift work fine. I haven't noticed any difference in the steering but it is always any ll ways little stiff.

We should be able to diagnose the problem with guages. What should be the correct pressures on the lines?

Thx-Ace

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12 hours ago, acem said:

My 1460 is having a similar problem. The auger swings good in the morning but slows down during the day, sometimes it quits while out. Mine is a two stick mechanical hydraulic system though. When this happens the header and reel lift work fine. I haven't noticed any difference in the steering but it is always any ll ways little stiff.

We should be able to diagnose the problem with guages. What should be the correct pressures on the lines?

Thx-Ace

On the old twin sticks, steering/secondary relief pressure should be 1750 psi, main pressure on the feeder lift should be around 2000psi.

On the electric-over-hydraulic 14/16 series, steering/secondary relief pressure should be approx. 2000psi, main pressure on the feeder lift should be at least 2250psi.

Steering/secondary relief would be easiest to check by teeing a gauge into a line at the steering cylinder and turning the wheels all the way to the stop in that direction.

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Thanks for the pressure specs.  After the rain friday I will check them.  

I expect it is the cylinder leaking by inside because everything else works ok except the steering is stiff at idle.

Thx-Ace

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Would low voltage to unloader retract  solenoid cause it to not fully open valve?

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Anything is possible in regards to low voltage. In all honesty, I probably haven't used a multimeter or test light on those valve stack solenoids in over 20 years. All you need to do is grab a wrench or screwdriver...something metallic. While activating your desired electric-over-hydraulic circuit you want to test, wave the screwdriver/wrench in the vicinity of the solenoid and feel for a magnetic pull. If its a noticeable, strong magnetic pull your electrical circuit is OK. That was more or less the first thing IH/CaseIH taught you to determine if you have an electrical problem or a hydraulic/mechanical problem with the EOH combines. Worked well for me for many years.

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