Billy4130

Carburetor or electrical problem on U-6 and U-264 Power Units

Recommended Posts

Hi there, I recently acquired an old Galion 303 road grader. It has a gasoline IH power unit, either the U6 or U-264 (Both are nearly identical from what I can tell in the service manuals). I have not been able to verify which of the 2 mine is yet.

The carburetors from the Farmall Super M seems to be the same from pictures, that I can tell.

I'm having a problem with my machine starting. It will run on starting fluid easy, but it just keeps acting like it is not getting gas, by itself. The carb has been off and cleaned and pressurized with compressed air and blown out, made a new gasket for it. Torch tip cleaners ran through all the orifices. I have a gravity feed auxillary gas tank I've hung from the cab to ensure I don't pick up any trash from the old tank, gravity feeding into the carb. I've been able to take the bowl off and verify if has gas in it. It has a great vacuum/draw on the aircleaner side, and if you choke it with your hand you will get some gas.

My father and I did a compression check and all 4 were close to 100psi. Most of the electrical components (plugs, cap, rotor, coil, points, and condensor) are all new. It is getting fire and we didn't get any back firing when using starting fluid.

After much trial and tribulation, I've come to wonder if this carburetor needs the operation of the fuel lift pump to perhaps "pressurize" the fuel bowl, and get the thing started? A neighbor where it is parked at said the previous owner always had trouble starting it. The fuel pump is missing off of the side of the block on mine, and there is a little plate there, and I hadn't really paid a lot of attention to it till i started looking closely in the U6 parts book I have where it clearly shows a fuel pump. 

Will this carb operate off of gravity feed only? If so, any ideas on what else I may have going on here?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

W6's don't have pumps, gravity feed only. You made a gasket, are you sure you put all the holes in it and they are lined up with the holes in the carb? Float level would be the next thing to check if there is gas getting to the carb. A vacuum leak will cause your symptoms, but you have good vacuum when choking by hand. I would try a gauge on it, anyway.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
28 minutes ago, R Pope said:

W6's don't have pumps, gravity feed only. You made a gasket, are you sure you put all the holes in it and they are lined up with the holes in the carb? Float level would be the next thing to check if there is gas getting to the carb. A vacuum leak will cause your symptoms, but you have good vacuum when choking by hand. I would try a gauge on it, anyway.

Hey there, thank you for the reply. Yes- when I made the gasket I did punch out the holes for the orifices to pass through from the top half of the carb down to the bowl section.

Just to clarify - this is a U6 engine, not a W6 (May have been a typo). But the 2 books I have on the engine do show a fuel pump, which is what made me wonder. I'm attaching a few pictures from the operators manual and also the parts book that caught my eye and made me question this. If it does not need the fuel pump then that is great - one less variable :)

 

The carb itself has the #s 27-53-R9 on the little brass tag. Stamped into the cast iron body itself is 54 on the bowl half, and 51 on the intake half. I'm willing to order a rebuild kit and throw in there if i can find one that matches up with it. The intake butterfly seems to fit the throat a little on the poor side, although the governor shaft is not loose or sloppy. I have not yet located anything online that crosses these #s for a rebuild kit, but am looking.

20180922_171607.jpg

20180926_085555_1.jpg

20180926_093323.jpg

20180926_085551.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Billy4130 said:

Hi there, I recently acquired an old Galion 303 road grader. It has a gasoline IH power unit, either the U6 or U-264 (Both are nearly identical from what I can tell in the service manuals). I have not been able to verify which of the 2 mine is yet.

The carburetors from the Farmall Super M seems to be the same from pictures, that I can tell.

I'm having a problem with my machine starting. It will run on starting fluid easy, but it just keeps acting like it is not getting gas, by itself. The carb has been off and cleaned and pressurized with compressed air and blown out, made a new gasket for it. Torch tip cleaners ran through all the orifices. I have a gravity feed auxillary gas tank I've hung from the cab to ensure I don't pick up any trash from the old tank, gravity feeding into the carb. I've been able to take the bowl off and verify if has gas in it. It has a great vacuum/draw on the aircleaner side, and if you choke it with your hand you will get some gas.

My father and I did a compression check and all 4 were close to 100psi. Most of the electrical components (plugs, cap, rotor, coil, points, and condensor) are all new. It is getting fire and we didn't get any back firing when using starting fluid.

After much trial and tribulation, I've come to wonder if this carburetor needs the operation of the fuel lift pump to perhaps "pressurize" the fuel bowl, and get the thing started? A neighbor where it is parked at said the previous owner always had trouble starting it. The fuel pump is missing off of the side of the block on mine, and there is a little plate there, and I hadn't really paid a lot of attention to it till i started looking closely in the U6 parts book I have where it clearly shows a fuel pump. 

Will this carb operate off of gravity feed only? If so, any ideas on what else I may have going on here?

 

They run off gravity just fine in a Farmall M. You say the float bowl has gas in it, but at what level? You can put a hose barb in the bowl drain with a clear tube attached to it, hold it up next to the carb and it will show what your actual fuel level in the bowl is. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would try an electric fuel pump.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The U6 is almost identical to the engines on W6's and Farmall M's. Where is the gas tank on the grader? If it is above the carb a foot or more it won't need a pump.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, R Pope said:

The U6 is almost identical to the engines on W6's and Farmall M's. Where is the gas tank on the grader? If it is above the carb a foot or more it won't need a pump.

Okay, got ya. The factory tank is better than ft above, so that shouldn't be a problem. the auxillary tank i'm using to ensure gas stays clean is definitely high enough to gravity feed also. So if it doesn't need the fuel pump then that's great - marks one other thing off the list to worry/check on.

 

Regarding the float level - is there a published fuel height level, for in the bowl, or just slam full to the top? 

 

If I wanted to buy a carb kit for this one and get new gaskets - any pointers on where to check? The #s on the brass tag have not matched up with any kits I've found on Steiner or elsewhere - are those #s on the brass tag what they're going by, or am I not seeing another number sequence on the thing somewhere? :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

shown above not using full #  are you sure your quoting it correct,also likely that # was sold off to dresser...since they are 46x defunct and after 5 years never cared to handle IH items to start with there would be little reason for it to show up in cyber world.

an old /good dealer could back trace it,  it may well be set up for pressurization   as most u/ud applications did not lend to gravity feed.

also back trace your block and head casting #  then likely you will be able to run a std M carb.....and possibly ?? those parts would fit in yours.

then have any nice neighbors..... borrow or rent/buy one(but that assumes engine runs and is usable) for test purposes

float setting for M would be close, is published in many manuals......+ very possible PO miss made/purchased gasket you started with( ? M not correct for this application ( of particular parts)) (some need certain holes blocked also)   80% >better you are missing a port that is blocked/ restricted,...........soaking in cleaner, piano wire and 50 psi air

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The only #s I have found on the carb so far are those on the little round brass tag pictured above, and the 54 / 51 on each half of the carb stamped into them. Am I missing another tag?

The machine is about 2 hours from my house so the next time I am down there at it, I will look for engine casting #s.

The 2 books i have do not list any float level information. I searched here and found this thread; https://www.redpowermagazine.com/forums/topic/87477-farmall-m-carb-float-hieght/

 

5/8 from the top of the bowl, sound right?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

you do not need a fuel pump if the tank is higher than the carb the bowl is vented and you couldn't pressurize it anyway you could run it over though if the pump was to strong.   Did you put the venturie back in when you cleaned the carb every once in a while somebody will bring me a carb where they forgot it. the same basic carb is used on a slew of IH tractors with out pumps find a M thru 450 somewhere switch carb see if it will start. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, R190 said:

you do not need a fuel pump if the tank is higher than the carb the bowl is vented and you couldn't pressurize it anyway you could run it over though if the pump was to strong.   Did you put the venturie back in when you cleaned the carb every once in a while somebody will bring me a carb where they forgot it. the same basic carb is used on a slew of IH tractors with out pumps find a M thru 450 somewhere switch carb see if it will start. 

Thanks for that info. Venturi is in. I'm gonna go through it and clean it one more time and attempt to set the float height based on what I saw here. The carburetor kits - I'm getting conflicting information on :) Will one from a M work in this carb we think, or I need to find some other numbers and way to cross reference it to something to make sure?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

you did not quote the FULL # on tag in first post did you use it in a search...

unless r190 has different info you need to match parts/kit to the brass tag.  quite possible it is std M with one slight tweek, that tweek may be the issue,and little chance to know what it is.exactly....different jet,gasket or simply 3/8 vs 5/16 studs

also as I said many # were sold off to dresser (good dealer can track down) otherwise trail goes dead

for now a good cleaning and inspection of  (missing) parts against an M chart is a start ....still no run then  beg or borrow one to try,confirming not an engine issue ....compression/timing

are you getting the governor shaft to engage properly...?

venturi in correct..... some have top bottom,but normally that is evident 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

27-53-R9 is the only # I have. It's what is on the brass tag pictured above, but it does not turn anything up on the site here except for this post, and it does not show up on any of the M type or style carb kits I have found online, yet. I just really wanted to be able to have a kit and put in it before I make another trip down there to where the machine is (I have the carb home with me) was my thought.

Governor shaft does engage, turns, and opens/closes butterfly when bolted on.

Has close to 100psi in each cylinder from a push on compression tester, so probably higher in reality. Timing seems to be good, no back firing when running on starting fluid. Took a timing light with me last trip but too bright outside during middle of the day to be able to tell much. Found some grooves in crankshaft belt pulley that feels like it coincides with TDC. Rotor was pointing at #1 on the cap in this same position (or darn close to it as close as I could get TDC without a dial indicator using a piece of wire ran down in the cylinder to feel it moving).

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The carb number is 271531r91 Not 27-53-R9 the main bowl gasket is a 47388da  when the idle mixture screw comes in at an angle as that one does basically any carb kit for an M Farmall will have all the correct gaskets and needle valve and seat . The jets would be specific to the application but may or may not be the same as an M but unless you manage to wreck one they are not normally bad And even then they will not be far enough off to cause the engine not to start. Float level is not particularly critical for starting .if you hold the top upside down and the top of the float is parallel to the base its close enough the tractor will run.  Over the years I have put M carbs on 450s  to try and chase down problems the tractors will run just not have maximum HP We work on a lot of those engines and the carbs do not give much trouble. Remember all the Ms that got overhauled after the middle sixties got sleeves and pistons with super M displacement and a very large percentage never got updated carb jets and they run just fine now yet with the crap we have for gas. A thought that came to mind did you happen to change the starter ? On most U 6 applications the starter comes in along side of the block I have seen tractor starters put on and the engine turns the wrong way and it does start then 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, R190 said:

The carb number is 271531r91 Not 27-53-R9 the main bowl gasket is a 47388da  when the idle mixture screw comes in at an angle as that one does basically any carb kit for an M Farmall will have all the correct gaskets and needle valve and seat . The jets would be specific to the application but may or may not be the same as an M but unless you manage to wreck one they are not normally bad And even then they will not be far enough off to cause the engine not to start. Float level is not particularly critical for starting .if you hold the top upside down and the top of the float is parallel to the base its close enough the tractor will run.  Over the years I have put M carbs on 450s  to try and chase down problems the tractors will run just not have maximum HP We work on a lot of those engines and the carbs do not give much trouble. Remember all the Ms that got overhauled after the middle sixties got sleeves and pistons with super M displacement and a very large percentage never got updated carb jets and they run just fine now yet with the crap we have for gas. A thought that came to mind did you happen to change the starter ? On most U 6 applications the starter comes in along side of the block I have seen tractor starters put on and the engine turns the wrong way and it does start then 

Thanks for the reply. I thought the other characters in the brass tag were separators, not 1s. I stopped by my local Napa and they matched up a carb kit that looks like it'll work, most likely from an M. Once it arrives here I'll replace my stuff with whats in the kit, double check the float level, and go from there.

That's an interesting thought on the starter. I have not replaced it, but unknown what previous owners did. We've had it running (pretty good, enough to use some of the hydraulics even) on starting fluid, but it just will not start on gas or stay running on gas on its own no matter what I seem to do, which kind of originally made me wonder about the fuel pump setup or lack thereof possibly being the problem.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Have you checked the filter into the carb?

Remove the pipe fitting just as it goes into the carb. There is a gauze filter there that can get bunged up.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, JamesW said:

Have you checked the filter into the carb?

Remove the pipe fitting just as it goes into the carb. There is a gauze filter there that can get bunged up.

Yes sir - that's clear. It had an inline filter which I've blown through and  gotten freed up also. Gas definitely getting into the carb and into the bowl.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

only thing remaining ....then vacuum /blockage

dont know what has been cobbled over the years.....as it was mentioned possible,just for every ones peace of mind do confirm  starter and points turn correct direction

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The crawler tractors, T6, used a fuel pump because the tank was at the rear and a crawler could be used on hilly terrain where the tank level may become lower than the carb.  So, the U series may have come with a fuel pump because the application was an unknown at the time of manufacture.  Like others have said, no pump needed if the tank is above the carb.

Dennis

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, this saga continues. The carburetor was soaked in a solution at a friends automotive shop in town over night. The rebuilt kit was put in it which did not consist of much but was new gaskets, new needle, new seat, orings and crush washers under a few of the jets including the big main one that has the nut on the outside bottom of the bowl.

Took it back down to the machine yesterday, 6th trip down there now, and same thing. Verified the governor linkage was connected and turning the butterfly by keeping the governor bolted on and unbolting from the intake manifold enough to look in and see it moving. While it was coming unbolted I was able to see some gas moisture soaking into the new gasket, so it was getting some gas at least up that far.

Verified gas was in the bowl on site by removing the drain plug. Had checked float level with the hose barb/clear hose setup in the bowl at the house, before taking it down there. It was in the range of height I've read about here on the forum.

Tried with throttle/governor linkage in all manner of positions open, closed, partially open, fanning it up and closed, choke butterfly open, closed.

Once again, when a little starting fluid was applied, it tried to fire right up, and my dad was able to meter the starting fluid into the breather side of the carb and keep it running pretty long time now. No backfiring or anything.

Pulled plugs. It's got fire. I have now replaced the plugs, the cap, the rotor, the condenser. We put on a known good coil from the one that was on it, and it's firing but I wouldn't call it the brightest bluest spark I am use to seeing, but its got fire.

 

Really at a loss on this thing. Does anyone have a known good carburetor I can borrow, or rent, or whatever to put on this thing and try to figure out what is going on? I'm fairly mechanically inclined and my father is in his 80s and has worked on and owned every manner of construction equipment and most tractors there are, but neither one of us are very familiar with international stuff or gas burners of this era. We've tried about everything we know to do other than swapping out a completely different carburetor that is known to run and work good.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

s-l1600.jpg

 

This H-style carburetor looks to be very similar but is a little different - is there any reason I couldn't buy one of these and use them?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

would try those ^&%*&%^ cheap china carbs on a known..(and known to fit.....after you got it running good otherwise

would try to borrow one local first.....any tractor associations...collectors near....? 300/ /50 should bolt on....are you getting the governor arm in right...?

 

.  moisture dirty points,,one plug or bad wire weak spark is enough that you look in the wrong place

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If anyone happens to have a known good carburetor I can borrow - be happy to pay a "rental" fee for it or if they want to sell it please let me know or message me, I don't know what else to try at this point. The biggest problem is the machine is about 2 hours from my shop, and I really need to get the thing running, in order to get the blade moved enough and drive it out from where its parked at, to get it loaded up. The folks where its sitting at have been kind enough to give me extra time to get it running but its going on better than 2 months now...

 

As far as electrical, the only things that have not been changed at this point is the plug wires themselves. Literally everything else has been replaced. Plugs, Cap, Rotor, Points, Coil. Guess I'll put a set of those on there just to remove that as a variable. 

 

I'm still thinking its a carburation problem. Maybe mine just plain has something wrong with it. A neighbor where the thing is sitting at alleges that the previous owner always had a hard time starting it too, so who knows? Maybe it has parts in it from one of the old kero carburetors in it, or something.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

can be loaded dead but fortunate scrapper doesnt like to work

bring this to main page (copy paste PM BJ )and state where you are,someone has to be within 1 hour

have you confirmed timing..? #1 just about 2:15

vacuum leak or blockage.......? some propane from unlit torch ( while cranking with no back fire)! in snout then around all gaskets

cant be there ...... set up drs live online would be better than typing

tie handles back ..chain fal the blade and start pulling

photos   photos

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now