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mader656

God made a 4020

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Just now, TP from Central PA said:

I was trying to be a nice as possible, because I don't know who wrote it, but I seen it on AG talk and I first thing I thought of was what idiot wrote this essay.  I honestly could not even read it all.  

I am not following this trend of over priced 4020's......because they seem to have peaked, anymore the red iron seem to be the ones over valued because they don't seem to have a limit to what people will spend for the post '65 tractors IMO.

Poor guys get a hobby, and it isn't long before the big boys pile on and run the prices up.  IDPA Shooting, Cars, and now tractors are just a few examples.  1456's, 1026's, Black Stripes, 1206's, etc. are getting out of reach for most of us and that's not to mention what has happened to Super 70's the last couple of years.   86 series have not seen these inflation figures, yet.   About the John Deere, I never liked how difficult they are to start, and I hated the older ones with the hand clutch.  And, by the way, don't pay my picking on you any attention.  You'll find out that I can take it as well as dish it out and only do it with people I like.

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1 hour ago, Big Bud guy said:

JD always put more emphasis on the operator even going back to the 2 cylinders.   

BIG BUD - You and I have seldom agreed on much when it comes to green equipment, but saying Deere used ergonomic design on a 2 cylinder tractor is just plain crazy!  I could nit-pick ergonomics on the 3010/4010, but side console tractors were actually pretty good. But the steering and pedal placement was good whether you were 5 ft tall or 6-1/2 ft tall.

But lets scatter a half dozen unmarked levers all around the operator platform on a B to a 830 and let the dumb SOB running it try to figure out which lever does what.  And just to screw him up even more, lets put a couple levers behind or along side the seat.  Brakes just out of reach of either foot was a nice touch too.  Backing up a 2-cylinder Deere was a futile excersize in contortionism,  right hand&arm forward on clutch lever, and look behind you over your left shoulder. Yep, whatever comparable IH tractor was being built when Mother Deere was pushing out 2-cylinder tractors was twice as easy to run as the Deere.

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1 minute ago, DOCTOR EVIL said:

BIG BUD - You and I have seldom agreed on much when it comes to green equipment, but saying Deere used ergonomic design on a 2 cylinder tractor is just plain crazy!  I could nit-pick ergonomics on the 3010/4010, but side console tractors were actually pretty good. But the steering and pedal placement was good whether you were 5 ft tall or 6-1/2 ft tall.

But lets scatter a half dozen unmarked levers all around the operator platform on a B to a 830 and let the dumb SOB running it try to figure out which lever does what.  And just to screw him up even more, lets put a couple levers behind or along side the seat.  Brakes just out of reach of either foot was a nice touch too.  Backing up a 2-cylinder Deere was a futile excersize in contortionism,  right hand&arm forward on clutch lever, and look behind you over your left shoulder. Yep, whatever comparable IH tractor was being built when Mother Deere was pushing out 2-cylinder tractors was twice as easy to run as the Deere.

I started to say the same thing.  When training for any activity, relying on muscle memory is a good technique.  Law Enforcement Officers rely on muscle memory to react quickly when needed.  Spend your whole life driving or operating any piece of equipment , and the clutch is always under the left foot.  What do those idiots that make green tractors do?  They put the clutch on a lever.  My Uncle took down a barn with a John Deere tractor because he panicked when parking the tractor and for the life of him could not remember where the clutch was.  Kept stomping on the floorboard until he went all the way up into the barn floor.  I would not have one of the darn things.  Reminded me of operating an old steam powered piece of equipment.  How they were the ones to stay in business, I will never understand.

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The real mind game to me is the step up the "Next Generation" 10 and 20 series Deere's were over their preceding models. 

When you look at how "old school, nothing really changes," the 2 cylinder 30 series JD tractors were. It is hard to imagine that they not only went to inline 4 or 6 cylinder engines, but also went to internal wet disc hyd brakes, planetary final drives, a closed center flow compensated hyd system with priority valved power steering, a synchro meshed trans from a confusing manual trans that had a HAND clutch! And shortly later a poweshift!

The technology gap from a 30 series 2 cylinder Deere to a 10 series "Next Generation" Deere is like going from a F30 Farmall to a 1066 or even 88 series in one step.

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4 minutes ago, rsscott said:

I started to say the same thing.  When training for any activity, relying on muscle memory is a good technique.  Law Enforcement Officers rely on muscle memory to react quickly when needed.  Spend your whole life driving or operating any piece of equipment , and the clutch is always under the left foot.  What do those idiots that make green tractors do?  They put the clutch on a lever.  My Uncle took down a barn with a John Deere tractor because he panicked when parking the tractor and for the life of him could not remember where the clutch was.  Kept stomping on the floorboard until he went all the way up into the barn floor.  I would not have one of the darn things.  Reminded me of operating an old steam powered piece of equipment.  How they were the ones to stay in business, I will never understand.

Would your uncle be equally worthless on a hand clutch WD-9?  You and others seem to forget IH made a lot hand clutch tractors too not to mention others like Case. 

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4 minutes ago, Cattech said:

The real mind game to me is the step up the "Next Generation" 10 and 20 series Deere's were over their preceding models. 

When you look at how "old school, nothing really changes," the 2 cylinder 30 series JD tractors were. It is hard to imagine that they not only went to inline 4 or 6 cylinder engines, but also went to internal wet disc hyd brakes, planetary final drives, a closed center flow compensated hyd system with priority valved power steering, a synchro meshed trans from a confusing manual trans that had a HAND clutch! And shortly later a poweshift!

The technology gap from a 30 series 2 cylinder Deere to a 10 series "Next Generation" Deere is like going from a F30 Farmall to a 1066 or even 88 series in one step.

I agree but keep in mind JD had been making conventional tractors since the late 30s starting with the L.  All they had to do was add 2 extra cylinders and they would have had what everyone else was building.  All the other things you mentioned was just bonus from 7 years of experimentation. 

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8 hours ago, bitty said:

My neighbor posted this on Facebook to stir up all the local yellow underwear guys. I had to mention about the either as our 3020 always started hard even after a local mechanic who was excellent and very well versed in JD rebuilt the engine. George used to average over one per month for the game Comission and forestry divisions on those four cylinder engines  

Aparently stirs up A red forum too...

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53 minutes ago, DOCTOR EVIL said:

BIG BUD - You and I have seldom agreed on much when it comes to green equipment, but saying Deere used ergonomic design on a 2 cylinder tractor is just plain crazy!  I could nit-pick ergonomics on the 3010/4010, but side console tractors were actually pretty good. But the steering and pedal placement was good whether you were 5 ft tall or 6-1/2 ft tall.

But lets scatter a half dozen unmarked levers all around the operator platform on a B to a 830 and let the dumb SOB running it try to figure out which lever does what.  And just to screw him up even more, lets put a couple levers behind or along side the seat.  Brakes just out of reach of either foot was a nice touch too.  Backing up a 2-cylinder Deere was a futile excersize in contortionism,  right hand&arm forward on clutch lever, and look behind you over your left shoulder. Yep, whatever comparable IH tractor was being built when Mother Deere was pushing out 2-cylinder tractors was twice as easy to run as the Deere.

HMMMM never thought a 2 cylinder JD was difficult to run?

And then to complain about the layout on the X000 series JD? Compared to IH's offering of the same years, the 60 series ? And I happen to like the 60 series and don't care much for the "new generation" JD's. But neither were well laid out for the operator with the exception of the SC JD's IMO.

Rick

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1 hour ago, DOCTOR EVIL said:

BIG BUD - You and I have seldom agreed on much when it comes to green equipment, but saying Deere used ergonomic design on a 2 cylinder tractor is just plain crazy!  I could nit-pick ergonomics on the 3010/4010, but side console tractors were actually pretty good. But the steering and pedal placement was good whether you were 5 ft tall or 6-1/2 ft tall.

But lets scatter a half dozen unmarked levers all around the operator platform on a B to a 830 and let the dumb SOB running it try to figure out which lever does what.  And just to screw him up even more, lets put a couple levers behind or along side the seat.  Brakes just out of reach of either foot was a nice touch too.  Backing up a 2-cylinder Deere was a futile excersize in contortionism,  right hand&arm forward on clutch lever, and look behind you over your left shoulder. Yep, whatever comparable IH tractor was being built when Mother Deere was pushing out 2-cylinder tractors was twice as easy to run as the Deere.

JD sold over 1.5 million 2 cylinders so not every one had trouble figuring out how to run one.  Plus JD pretty much pulled even with IH yearly sales wise during the last years of the 2 cylinders.  Nobody has been able to explain that to me yet.  So apparently a few people could figure out how to run one.  We ran two cylinders and IH together back in the day.  Got along fine with both so either we were smarter then the rest or you are just exaggerating.  I'm starting to believe both.   I was 8 when I learned to run our 1937 BN.  Didn't take a genius to figure out which was the clutch lever, what the "H" and "L" means and what "1" and "2" means on the transmission cover.  Could also start it by myself after observing the technique of an old hunched over 80 year old retired farmer hand starting a styled D.  Those are a 501 cubic inch engine.  If he would do that, you shouldn't have any problem with a JD H.  You want to make someone look stupid.  Lets throw them on a gas start diesel IH.  Since some guys get hung up on hand clutches lets make it a hand clutch WD-9.  Better yet lets make it a crawler.  If guys have trouble with one hand clutch, what will three do to you?

Our Farmall M has a steel pan seat and my 450 had a pan seat with a thin cushion.   Starting in 1947 JD tractors had a bench seat with a back rest.  The hydraulic lever beside the seat is were it should be.  JD had to relearn that later on.  The throttle is right by the steering wheel like most tractors.  Our 37' B and my 46' GM has the gear shift pattern numbered.  I prefer the nice cushioned bench seat with a back rest and wide ops platform with no seat support between your legs on a R-830 vs the phone booth platform were your elbows almost rub both fenders and you still sit on a glorified pan seat on a W9 series.  I also love being able to operate my 820 standing up.  The brakes I'll give you.  Only time I ever used them is going around corners in the heavy pull.  Besides if you can't figure out B then you shouldn't be on any other tractor anyway.  Have you ever been on a Case 500?  Hand clutch on the left, pto lever on the left, two hydraulic levers on the right side in front of you, a decompression lever, and shifter between the dash and steering wheel.  Figured that all out in 5 minutes.  Common sense goes a long ways.  Didn't Allis Chalmers have hand brakes?  Bet that would trip up some of you.  Heck, don't even go near an antique combine.  Lots of levers on those things.  And finally I didn't base my original comment off what I read on the internet or what somebody else said.  I OWN some of these tractors and what I said was based off experience.  Remember that. 

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Still own a 2 cylinder. I never had any problem figuring out what lever does what and have no issues with the brakes. I will say that backing up is a pain and the only good way I've ever found is to use my right foot on the clutch lever in order to ease it back. Clutch has to be set a little tight or there a possibility of having it snap in just when you don't want it to.

1957 and it has a real 3 point and descent hydraulics for the time. Seat is comfortable. Power steering is light. Live PTO. It's simple and reliable = and still going 60+ years later.

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3 hours ago, TP from Central PA said:

Here the dealer prefered to sell them that way, goofs even ordered the 4000's with power shifts, some people never seen one, and I need my fingers and a lot of my toes to count them all here.  A lot of syncro so around east of me though, I have run both, power shift is nice but syncro works nice for other things too........IMO neither one are tillage tractors.  Speeds on the power shift aren't right and the syncro driveline before the rear is weak IMO at stock power levels, God forbid if you hang and M&W turbo on and turn it for all she is worth, both for the drive clutch and PTO clutch.  But like I said, the hydraulic system is head and shoulders ahead other than having the charge pump in the rear on the syncro tractors and only runs when the clutch is out, but that doesn't effect most people.  And they handle nice.  I personally think the seat is over rated, but most rave about it.  You can bash them all you want, but they were a hunk of iron that has withstood time.  The engines stay together and work, but I sure like the insides of a IH diesel(excluding the D282) a lot better though!

Yeah, ours is a synchro range with a loader.   It's annoying pretty regularly (I forgot to put that in my list).     I do have the JD hydraulic filter cover with a port to send return oil to from a loader, but that means I need to get a valve setup and plumb the loader in that way instead of the original connections. 

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5 hours ago, Big Bud guy said:

JD sold over 1.5 million 2 cylinders so not every one had trouble figuring out how to run one.  Plus JD pretty much pulled even with IH yearly sales wise during the last years of the 2 cylinders.  Nobody has been able to explain that to me yet.  So apparently a few people could figure out how to run one.  We ran two cylinders and IH together back in the day.  Got along fine with both so either we were smarter then the rest or you are just exaggerating.  I'm starting to believe both.   I was 8 when I learned to run our 1937 BN.  Didn't take a genius to figure out which was the clutch lever, what the "H" and "L" means and what "1" and "2" means on the transmission cover.  Could also start it by myself after observing the technique of an old hunched over 80 year old retired farmer hand starting a styled D.  Those are a 501 cubic inch engine.  If he would do that, you shouldn't have any problem with a JD H.  You want to make someone look stupid.  Lets throw them on a gas start diesel IH.  Since some guys get hung up on hand clutches lets make it a hand clutch WD-9.  Better yet lets make it a crawler.  If guys have trouble with one hand clutch, what will three do to you?

Our Farmall M has a steel pan seat and my 450 had a pan seat with a thin cushion.   Starting in 1947 JD tractors had a bench seat with a back rest.  The hydraulic lever beside the seat is were it should be.  JD had to relearn that later on.  The throttle is right by the steering wheel like most tractors.  Our 37' B and my 46' GM has the gear shift pattern numbered.  I prefer the nice cushioned bench seat with a back rest and wide ops platform with no seat support between your legs on a R-830 vs the phone booth platform were your elbows almost rub both fenders and you still sit on a glorified pan seat on a W9 series.  I also love being able to operate my 820 standing up.  The brakes I'll give you.  Only time I ever used them is going around corners in the heavy pull.  Besides if you can't figure out B then you shouldn't be on any other tractor anyway.  Have you ever been on a Case 500?  Hand clutch on the left, pto lever on the left, two hydraulic levers on the right side in front of you, a decompression lever, and shifter between the dash and steering wheel.  Figured that all out in 5 minutes.  Common sense goes a long ways.  Didn't Allis Chalmers have hand brakes?  Bet that would trip up some of you.  Heck, don't even go near an antique combine.  Lots of levers on those things.  And finally I didn't base my original comment off what I read on the internet or what somebody else said.  I OWN some of these tractors and what I said was based off experience.  Remember that. 

The hand clutches IH built except for crawlers were a VERY LOW percentage option. I have never even seen one in person. IH continued to build them up to the 706/806.  Maybe 1% of production at best had them. More likely 1/2 of 1% of a handful of models.

Deere made 1-1/2 million hand clutch tractors. Yep, like most farm kids, I got about 2 minutes instruction in operating the R diesel then left to disking corn stalks to sow oats. Most instruction was how to lay out the marker row, not about actual running of tractor.  My ears rang for 5-6 hours after I parked that damned tractor and I only ran it 4 hours disking 20 acres. Hard to quiet a 416 cid engine with a muffler the size of your forearm. I was about 2 weeks from turning ten years old. Week later Dad followed me from the SM-TA while I plowed for the first time with the R. Dad actually rode a round with me. We plowed around the outside of 40 acres of old sod, plod along in 2nd gear, had to shift into Grandma gear to climb on clay hill, Dad crawling all over the tailwheel of my plow with the SM-TA pulling 3-14's, I was pulling 4-14's. You think the 1940 Farmall MD was a PITA to start, the R takes that award, a choke on a diesel tractor, starter, throttle, separate clutch, pinion engagement lever, and decompression lever,  whole separate area on the operator platform for all that junk,  MD actually only had ONE extra lever, the one that switched from gas to diesel, the throttle lever was, still the throttle in both states of operation. Oh, and that gutless 2 cylinder pony motor on the R was a joke, Even Deere finally figured that out and used the V-4 on every other diesel tractor they built except the 435 with the Detroit.

The 1940 B Dad bought for $90 in December about 1969 was just a poor piece of an excuse for a tractor. I doubt it ever had the engine ever rebuilt. 4-speed tractor, road speed was 4-1/2 mph on the 9-38 tires. Reverse was something over 4 mph.  Backing it with anything hooked up required major clutch slipping. By this time I was hauling in and unloading all the corn and oats into our inside elevator in our crib.  I backed 4-wheel wagons half way thru that BIG crib with my left foot flat on the platform of the SH at low idle.

Oh, Grandpa had a WC Allis with hand brakes, good thing Dad didn't have the BIG EWC flare box wagon then, that WC would never have pulled it. Grandpa helped Dad pick corn, had to use a Stan-Hoist wagon hoist to raise the wagons, and drive thru the crib, no backing up for Grandpa.

BTO I worked for had a whole fleet of 2 cylinder Deeres I ran occasionally,  everything BUT his 520,  Nobody but Him ran that.  That was O-K with me, it blew the guts out of the muffler and you could hear it upwind a mile and a half away, imagine being on the seat? A, 60, seems like there was an even older more worn out G.  Speaking of running tractors standing up,  THAT was something Dad really frowned on, but it was about the only way I could shove that 2 ft long throttle lever forward on the R,  and engage the clutch.  The SM-TA, SH and 450 all came with the flip back seat option,  they ALL disappeared to who knows where about an hour after the tractors were delivered.  Say, You want a comfortable tractor seat?  Buy a white Tombstone K&M seat used on an IH 56-series, add a 1/2 inch steel plate to the seat mount of an IH battery box seat base and bolt the Tombstone seat to it with all seven 3/8" capscrews. 4 inches of the best Nauguhyde covered foam rubber on seat base and back, 2 inches in the fold down arm rests,  BEST tractor seat EVER. I drove many brand new, less than 5 hour 4020/4320's, and the Deere seat Sears MFG made did not come close to comparing. Not a "Bad" seat, just not a great seat.  I will say, after driving all the H's and M's with the heaviest coil spring to support Dad's 225 to 250# when I tipped the scales at less than 100#, I truely enjoyed adjusting the seat on the 4010 to my 140-150 pounds which I raised all the way up & back every time I got off and if Dad jumped on it for whatever reason it crashed DOWN to the bump stops at the end of it's travel.  I got cursed for that Many Many times. Only a few of which I was present for. For a tractor that was wore out in so many ways, that 4010 actually had decent seat, no cracks or rips in the vinyl and it had to be the factory original seat or at least and oem replacement,  ANOTHER sign it was an original low hour tractor with many many things worn WAY beyond what normal. Tractor had to have spent time under a roof when not running, paint was oxidized for a 5 yr old tractor, but not terribly weathered. First thing Dad did was put on 4 new tires, new paint & decals.

OH, one last example what a POS the R diesel was, only time we ran Deere's first LPTO was to power the live hyd. We NEVER attached anything to the pto shaft, plan was to run our #25 Deere combine but used the SM-TA instead. Township road commissioner bought the R, paid Dad the $1500 He paid for it, used it to run a heavy duty rototiller to chew up scarified roads. He tore the PTO out of the R EVERY YEAR they ran it, 3 times in 3 years, traded it for an Oliver 770 diesel that I ran 9-10 years later.  R was also the ONLY 2 cylinder diesel built with no center main bearing. If lugged down broken crankshafts were known to happen. Did Deere even field test that danged tractor?  IH knew to put five main bearings in the MD instead of the 3 used in the M. I have seen a broken M crankshaft, Road Commissioner I worked for, his youngest son owned the tractor. Machine shop planed the head .125 inches, not the .015" to .030" as requested. With 4 inch FireCrater sleeves & pistons it was a HORSE!  Broke the crankshaft a year or two after the rebuild across the creek from the 80 my Sister & I own. Twisted in two right behind the center main bearing. Guy that rebuilt it showed Dad and I the crankshaft.  Plus I read on here, RPM forum of a broken crankshaft on an M pulling tractor think it was. For almost 300,000 M's and how many more SM, SM-TA, 400,450 that's a pretty good track record.

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Dad bought a '66 4020 powershift in 96. I had a '67 806 at the same time. The 4020 transmission was the next best thing to a hydro doing work that you would be doing with a hydro. Also had way better hydraulics and turned so much easier and shorter than the 8.0. I'd forgotten about the 3pt lever on the dash, never could understand that. I really didn't mind driving it as far as that goes, just wasn't my color. 806 was a more stout tractor that the engine spun over alot faster starting, used less fuel on pto work than the 4020, even blowing up silage. Had poor hydraulics by far compared to the 4020. We pulled a 750 drill with both, but since the 4020 was a powershift wouldn't be fair to compare it to the 806 because it was like a hydro in a way you lost power with the powershift transmission. I did buy it from mom after dad passed away, but evidently I didn't like it that well because I traded the 4020 on the 8940 in 2001.

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8 hours ago, Big Bud guy said:

I agree but keep in mind JD had been making conventional tractors since the late 30s starting with the L.  All they had to do was add 2 extra cylinders and they would have had what everyone else was building.  All the other things you mentioned was just bonus from 7 years of experimentation. 

JD  2 popper was obsolete in the early 30's and JD finally joined the modern tractors in the 60's. JD used a Case and a Ford SOS to develope there modern tractor in the 60's.  The 4440 was the first tractor JD made that could run with IH tractor.

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15 minutes ago, supermpuller said:

JD  2 popper was obsolete in the early 30's and JD finally joined the modern tractors in the 60's. JD used a Case and a Ford SOS to develope there modern tractor in the 60's.  The 4440 was the first tractor JD made that could run with IH tractor.

You can Bet the Farm that Mother Deere tore many IH 400-series engines apart before they put their #466 into production in the 40-series.

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This is one of the reasons I like to pull with a G..................sure brings smiles to IH guys faces when I drive by their spin out marks waving.  I can't stand 2 cylinders, but boy is that fun!   

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45 minutes ago, DOCTOR EVIL said:

The hand clutches IH built except for crawlers were a VERY LOW percentage option. I have never even seen one in person. IH continued to build them up to the 706/806.  Maybe 1% of production at best had them. More likely 1/2 of 1% of a handful of models.

Deere made 1-1/2 million hand clutch tractors. Yep, like most farm kids, I got about 2 minutes instruction in operating the R diesel then left to disking corn stalks to sow oats. Most instruction was how to lay out the marker row, not about actual running of tractor.  My ears rang for 5-6 hours after I parked that damned tractor and I only ran it 4 hours disking 20 acres. Hard to quiet a 416 cid engine with a muffler the size of your forearm. I was about 2 weeks from turning ten years old. Week later Dad followed me from the SM-TA while I plowed for the first time with the R. Dad actually rode a round with me. We plowed around the outside of 40 acres of old sod, plod along in 2nd gear, had to shift into Grandma gear to climb on clay hill, Dad crawling all over the tailwheel of my plow with the SM-TA pulling 3-14's, I was pulling 4-14's. You think the 1940 Farmall MD was a PITA to start, the R takes that award, a choke on a diesel tractor, starter, throttle, separate clutch, pinion engagement lever, and decompression lever,  whole separate area on the operator platform for all that junk,  MD actually only had ONE extra lever, the one that switched from gas to diesel, the throttle lever was, still the throttle in both states of operation. Oh, and that gutless 2 cylinder pony motor on the R was a joke, Even Deere finally figured that out and used the V-4 on every other diesel tractor they built except the 435 with the Detroit.

The 1940 B Dad bought for $90 in December about 1969 was just a poor piece of an excuse for a tractor. I doubt it ever had the engine ever rebuilt. 4-speed tractor, road speed was 4-1/2 mph on the 9-38 tires. Reverse was something over 4 mph.  Backing it with anything hooked up required major clutch slipping. By this time I was hauling in and unloading all the corn and oats into our inside elevator in our crib.  I backed 4-wheel wagons half way thru that BIG crib with my left foot flat on the platform of the SH at low idle.

Oh, Grandpa had a WC Allis with hand brakes, good thing Dad didn't have the BIG EWC flare box wagon then, that WC would never have pulled it. Grandpa helped Dad pick corn, had to use a Stan-Hoist wagon hoist to raise the wagons, and drive thru the crib, no backing up for Grandpa.

BTO I worked for had a whole fleet of 2 cylinder Deeres I ran occasionally,  everything BUT his 520,  Nobody but Him ran that.  That was O-K with me, it blew the guts out of the muffler and you could hear it upwind a mile and a half away, imagine being on the seat? A, 60, seems like there was an even older more worn out G.  Speaking of running tractors standing up,  THAT was something Dad really frowned on, but it was about the only way I could shove that 2 ft long throttle lever forward on the R,  and engage the clutch.  The SM-TA, SH and 450 all came with the flip back seat option,  they ALL disappeared to who knows where about an hour after the tractors were delivered.  Say, You want a comfortable tractor seat?  Buy a white Tombstone K&M seat used on an IH 56-series, add a 1/2 inch steel plate to the seat mount of an IH battery box seat base and bolt the Tombstone seat to it with all seven 3/8" capscrews. 4 inches of the best Nauguhyde covered foam rubber on seat base and back, 2 inches in the fold down arm rests,  BEST tractor seat EVER. I drove many brand new, less than 5 hour 4020/4320's, and the Deere seat Sears MFG made did not come close to comparing. Not a "Bad" seat, just not a great seat.  I will say, after driving all the H's and M's with the heaviest coil spring to support Dad's 225 to 250# when I tipped the scales at less than 100#, I truely enjoyed adjusting the seat on the 4010 to my 140-150 pounds which I raised all the way up & back every time I got off and if Dad jumped on it for whatever reason it crashed DOWN to the bump stops at the end of it's travel.  I got cursed for that Many Many times. Only a few of which I was present for. For a tractor that was wore out in so many ways, that 4010 actually had decent seat, no cracks or rips in the vinyl and it had to be the factory original seat or at least and oem replacement,  ANOTHER sign it was an original low hour tractor with many many things worn WAY beyond what normal. Tractor had to have spent time under a roof when not running, paint was oxidized for a 5 yr old tractor, but not terribly weathered. First thing Dad did was put on 4 new tires, new paint & decals.

OH, one last example what a POS the R diesel was, only time we ran Deere's first LPTO was to power the live hyd. We NEVER attached anything to the pto shaft, plan was to run our #25 Deere combine but used the SM-TA instead. Township road commissioner bought the R, paid Dad the $1500 He paid for it, used it to run a heavy duty rototiller to chew up scarified roads. He tore the PTO out of the R EVERY YEAR they ran it, 3 times in 3 years, traded it for an Oliver 770 diesel that I ran 9-10 years later.  R was also the ONLY 2 cylinder diesel built with no center main bearing. If lugged down broken crankshafts were known to happen. Did Deere even field test that danged tractor?  IH knew to put five main bearings in the MD instead of the 3 used in the M. I have seen a broken M crankshaft, Road Commissioner I worked for, his youngest son owned the tractor. Machine shop planed the head .125 inches, not the .015" to .030" as requested. With 4 inch FireCrater sleeves & pistons it was a HORSE!  Broke the crankshaft a year or two after the rebuild across the creek from the 80 my Sister & I own. Twisted in two right behind the center main bearing. Guy that rebuilt it showed Dad and I the crankshaft.  Plus I read on here, RPM forum of a broken crankshaft on an M pulling tractor think it was. For almost 300,000 M's and how many more SM, SM-TA, 400,450 that's a pretty good track record.

 You have mentioned the PTO and pulling power of an R before. My dad had one. It was his big tractor and did all the tillage. Never had a  problem with the PTO with the exception that a PO had gotten the clutch pack hot, warped the plates and the PTO would not shut off. After a clutch pack rebuild we never had a problem. Plowing? Dad and I both ran ours about 3/4 throttle in 3rd plowing 4-14's no issues. Granted it was a pig to drive with power steering by armstrong. I can remember standing up, using both hand to steer while standing on on brake or the other ad needed.

Rick

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9 hours ago, Big Bud guy said:

Would your uncle be equally worthless on a hand clutch WD-9?  You and others seem to forget IH made a lot hand clutch tractors too not to mention others like Case. 

Final thoughts, just so you don't make me out to be some kind of idiot, I was fully aware that IH made "certain"  models with a hand clutch, but not everything they made had one.  And I still stand by my thoughts that JD was just one step ahead of a steam locomotive up until the Next Gen or whatever they called it.

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Good grief the greenie weinies have infiltrated our forum.

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Is this a touchy subject? (Popping corn) This is almost as good of read as an oil thread. Sorry guys I couldn’t resist. 

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9 minutes ago, ZachGrant said:

Good grief the greenie weinies have infiltrated our forum.

They have always been here...............Just don't broadcast it.  

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16 minutes ago, Missouri Mule said:

Is this a touchy subject? (Popping corn) This is almost as good of read as an oil thread. Sorry guys I couldn’t resist. 

Cheesy puff and rootbeer

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10 minutes ago, mader656 said:

Cheesy puff and rootbeer

How does that work with a touch screen?

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So im starting to think Dr E MAYBE didnt think much of the jd r ........

.....🙂

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12 hours ago, Reichow7120 said:

My question is this. Everyone talks about Powershifts in 4020s. Was it a thing that some areas took to the powershift and some areas didn't for a bit.

I've seen a lot of 4020s around me and every single one of them is the synchro. Never seen a early Deere powershift in person until we bought our old JD backhoe which has a 8 speed with a shuttle reverser on it. (3020 engine too) Deere Powershifts didn't seem to take off around here until the 15 speed came out. I can think of one 40 series tractor that has a powershift and that one is a 4840. You only got them in powershift. Everything else was Quad Range. I've even been in a 4630 with a synchro in it.

My brother bought his 4020 PS from Spoor & Parlin in 68 or 69.

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