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Farmall1066

2388 vs 8010

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Might be time to update combines, and trying to decide, spend a pretty penny on a low houred 2388, or spend about the same or a touch more for an 8010.  What do you guys run? Pros, and cons, for those that have been around both? 

Thanks for your thoughts and opinions.

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We run a 7010 and would not go back to a 88 series. The self leveling sivs are a must and we are on fiat ground. There are tons of other things that a 88 series doesn't havve

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Could you expand on those differences? We are in the same situation. Are there drawbacks going to 7010? I guess I'm old fashioned I like the idea of proven which the 88 series is

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1 hour ago, Farmall1066 said:

Might be time to update combines, and trying to decide, spend a pretty penny on a low houred 2388, or spend about the same or a touch more for an 8010.  What do you guys run? Pros, and cons, for those that have been around both? 

Thanks for your thoughts and opinions.

We are going through same debate now. From what I know the later 8010s are pretty good machines..

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If i were buying a 8010 I would a red topped one not the black grain tank.  The higher h.p. is nice as well. Bigger grain tank. Heavy final drives a plus.a very easy to set for different crops.

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I have heard from several different people red,green or yellow with the self leveling systems are great but longevity is never used to describe them. Several forums have reported they wear out by 1500hours and this past summer Deere was providing all the parts to rebuild systems on the early s series combines but the labor was up to you to pay.

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To be honest with you, I'm really surprised that the 23/25 series have kept up their value as much as they have since they are getting up there in years/age anymore, but their reputation speaks for itself and the fact that you don't have to upgrade heads are what is keeping their value up.

Just some of the pluses for the Flagship machines are: variable speed feeder house, self-leveling sieve, NO rotor belts, much easier to change concaves/modules, deslugging the rotor without leaving your seat, much heavier built in many wear areas, fine-cut chopper(optional), faster unloading, bigger grain tank, no tools necessary to open/close the grain tank extensions and bubble-up auger, more HP, longer unloaders, heavier final drives and transmission, feeder house further ahead so header visibility is better, single-point hydraulic and header hookup, MUCH fewer grease zerks(only 100 hr zerks are 4 on the final drive driveshafts and 3 chopper bearings.

The negatives in my opinion are the %*&^ rethrasher on the RH side, more electronics, different to set in comparison to the older Axial-Flows(all of your mental notes used for adjustments on the old AFs can be thrown away for setting the Flagship models; also you will have to consider upgrading headers which can nearly double the $$$$ involved.

We've had several guys buy the older black top 8010s, which can be bought very reasonable anymore. They have had good luck with them, but they also keep an older 21/2388 around for backup(they aren't worth anything to trade in anyway). They're also not putting as many hours on them in a season as the guys running newer Flagship combines.

We've had several customers in the same boat as you guys-most of them choose to move forward with the Flagship machines and are glad they did.

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34 minutes ago, SDman said:

To be honest with you, I'm really surprised that the 23/25 series have kept up their value as much as they have since they are getting up there in years/age anymore, but their reputation speaks for itself and the fact that you don't have to upgrade heads are what is keeping their value up.

Just some of the pluses for the Flagship machines are: variable speed feeder house, self-leveling sieve, NO rotor belts, much easier to change concaves/modules, deslugging the rotor without leaving your seat, much heavier built in many wear areas, fine-cut chopper(optional), faster unloading, bigger grain tank, no tools necessary to open/close the grain tank extensions and bubble-up auger, more HP, longer unloaders, heavier final drives and transmission, feeder house further ahead so header visibility is better, single-point hydraulic and header hookup, MUCH fewer grease zerks(only 100 hr zerks are 4 on the final drive driveshafts and 3 chopper bearings.

The negatives in my opinion are the %*&^ rethrasher on the RH side, more electronics, different to set in comparison to the older Axial-Flows(all of your mental notes used for adjustments on the old AFs can be thrown away for setting the Flagship models; also you will have to consider upgrading headers which can nearly double the $$$$ involved.

We've had several guys buy the older black top 8010s, which can be bought very reasonable anymore. They have had good luck with them, but they also keep an older 21/2388 around for backup(they aren't worth anything to trade in anyway). They're also not putting as many hours on them in a season as the guys running newer Flagship combines.

We've had several customers in the same boat as you guys-most of them choose to move forward with the Flagship machines and are glad they did.

You ever have any chopper bearings go out on the flagships? Was a big problem a couple years ago around here.

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3 minutes ago, dale560 said:

You ever have any chopper bearings go out on the flagships? Was a big problem a couple years ago around here.

Oh yes, they came out with a much heavier design 2 years ago that seem to be holding up well. Part of the reason was that the Flagship machines run the chopper at 2800RPM(older machines) or 3000 RPM(newer machines) instead of the 2100 RPM on the legacy AFs. Also, with the fine-cut shopper you have more blades to take care of-one missing blade on a chopper running 3 grand can ruin bearings in a hurry. Also, those concentra-lock bearings were a little light in the design of the chopper to begin with. The newer bearings are much heavier and have given little troubles. 

Also, keep in mind that the chopper design on the Flagship combines uses a "shaft running inside a shaft" design, with the inner shaft being the main power shaft that runs the whole machine(the outer shaft being the chopper itself). Either shaft can give troubles on a Flagship.To be honest with you, that whole chopper system is probably the most maintenance-intensive part of a Flagship machine. The cleaning system has been relatively trouble-free on the Flagsip(MUCH less maintenance overall that the cleaning systems on the 16/21/2388s ever were).

I'll warn you guys the same thing has happened to every new operator of a Flagship combine-they plug the fan housing with grain in the first 2-300 feet once they start in the field due to having the presieve open too far. Seems to be a "right of passage" for every new operator. On the 8010s, you get to clean the fan chute by either using a small screwdriver through 2 small holes or(if you're lucky), turn the fan speed to max and hope the fan can blow it all out of the chute. On the 20 series and newer they have a cleanout door that makes it much easier.

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That’s the one thing we are struggling with, we have good heads now, and to go to an 8010, it’s buying heads also.  And yeah I to have been told to get a late 06 or newer

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Farmall1066. What size heads are you going to run with the 8010?

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If the hours are about the same the flagship combine will have about twice the amount of bushels of grain run Thu it witch means twice the wear. Having said that you can not beat the flagship.

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The only thing a flagship has in common with a 2388 is the name badge. I have an ‘08 8010 red top. That thing makes harvest FUN. It is significantly more capacity in every way from a 2388. But some reliable sources (test engineers) say that a Mid-range 7140 will outperform a size 8 flagship, with the right operator. However the 7140 is a lot newer and more expensive. The flagship is a lot nicer, but comes with more potential problems. (Just like any machine covered with electronics) Another thing about the 8010 is it’s  physically bigger and much heavier, that has been a bad thing for some people. (Custom cutters). Your old heads will have to me traded or modified to go on a flagship or even a newer mid range, so you may as well switch now. The 35’ MacDon on our 8010 is about as small as you’d want unless you have incredibly heavy yielding crops. That thing is an animal. Everyone says the 8120 was even better, but I don’t know your budget. 

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I've been thinking on the same thing for a yr or 2 already running a 2188-2388 now and am thinking on staying with the 2 till I don't have operators to run them

the draw backs I'm facing are

price

have to exchange headers and getting a decent macdon header is gonna be around the 50000

and I've been hearing a lot more on repair cost go up tremendously, seems like the cones really don't last, and I'm doing the feeder house on the 2188 floor/chain and sprockets and i'll have about 3000 in parts, friend did his 7120 and was just shy of 10000 redoing his feeder house

 

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5 minutes ago, wheatking said:

I've been thinking on the same thing for a yr or 2 already running a 2188-2388 now and am thinking on staying with the 2 till I don't have operators to run them

the draw backs I'm facing are

price

have to exchange headers and getting a decent macdon header is gonna be around the 50000

and I've been hearing a lot more on repair cost go up tremendously, seems like the cones really don't last, and I'm doing the feeder house on the 2188 floor/chain and sprockets and i'll have about 3000 in parts, friend did his 7120 and was just shy of 10000 redoing his feeder house

 

Neighbors have a couple 9240s. They a really tough on stuff. Shredded feeder chain under warranty a couple times and both combines have had 3 feeder gear boxes for  12000 or so apiece. They are the only guys though I know of wrecking these.  They slug the feeder with canola and power reverse it and bang it goes.They had a couple 9230s and one needed the whole hydraulic system cleaned they blew up the rotor drive pump or a pump up there and sent it through the whole system but they are the only people to do that also. I want to upgrade to a 7088 one day keep it simple and straight forward

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The flagship cone wears right where the first 2 rasps are positioned on the rotor. Just take off the front two rasps and you significantly help the cone wear problem, as well as pick up some power. It’s a well known practice and actually improves performance. The feeder gearbox is a common problem they have. They wear the splines off the conveyor shaft. But it’s less than $2000 to replace the shaft and upper roller. And it should last a couple thousand hours. I don’t see how you could possibly sink $12,000 into that repair, as mentioned above. As far as a draper, you should be able to get a couple yr old 35’ MacDon FD75 in the low $40k range. 

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19 minutes ago, Virginia Veg. said:

The flagship cone wears right where the first 2 rasps are positioned on the rotor. Just take off the front two rasps and you significantly help the cone wear problem, as well as pick up some power. It’s a well known practice and actually improves performance. The feeder gearbox is a common problem they have. They wear the splines off the conveyor shaft. But it’s less than $2000 to replace the shaft and upper roller. And it should last a couple thousand hours. I don’t see how you could possibly sink $12,000 into that repair, as mentioned above. As far as a draper, you should be able to get a couple yr old 35’ MacDon FD75 in the low $40k range. 

The complete gear box was 12000 or more they told me. The feeder chain was sitting in a heap in their storage. I asked them how they ruined it then I told them I ran my chain for another 600 hrs after taking links out and made it to a 1000 hrs this year before it come out front.They told them no more warranty either after that. They would explode the box. These guys have bought around 20 new combines since going to caseih with 1688s. They had both combines  in this spring again they said for the shafts.

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I wonder if they’re wrecking the big gearbox back by the engine. The feeder gearbox is too small and simple to be $12k. 

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3 minutes ago, Virginia Veg. said:

I wonder if they’re wrecking the big gearbox back by the engine. The feeder gearbox is too small and simple to be $12k. 

Just looked up price $8355 so he must have been talking gear box , chain and shaft or drum for 12,000. It was feeder gear box but like I said they are the only people to screw one up. I think the main gear box or motor is what the exploded on the 9230 under warranty. These guys are tough on them when they go.

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The "Micky Mouse gearbox"(our partsman's name for the feeder gerabox since it looks like Micky Mouse's face and ears) runs about $3K for a reman unit with a good core. To install the new top feeder shaft with the greaseable spline coupling is $2200 or so, and most of the time when you do this repair you will install an $1800 feeder chain as well. Now if your dealership uses the new special tool with a laser to properly check the alignment of the gearcase and shim the gearcase it can run you $9-10K once labor is all figured in. Sometimes you can just replace the output shaft on the gearbox and its only $600 or so instead of buying a whole gearbox. Also, if the stripper bar for the top feeder shaft is cracked, that's another grand for it. Adds up fast.

As far as cones and cages, that is a problem CNH has been fighting for several years now on the Flagships. Cones and/or cages are wearing out in 4-500 hours in some places, even with rice/extended wear components. Sounds like the cones are going to be chromed at the factory soon-that's the only way they can make them last for an acceptable life.

I would argue the 8010s had better service life on wear components than the 20 & 30 series that replaced them. Its similar to when people were complaining that 2388s were wearing out components faster than their previous 14 & 1680 models. More horsepower=more throughput=more wear.

As far as 8010s are concerned, keep in mind the 07 models(first year red tops) still had that POS plastic rotary screen that was used on 8010s and 2388s. In 2006 CaseIH bumped up the HP on the 8010 from 375 to 400, added another fan blade to the radiator, and rearranged the coolers in the cooler box. The 06 and 07 models had some overheating issues because of all of this. In 08, they used the better rotary screen(thanks New Holland) and had the coolers all stacked in one row from top to bottom(this was referred to as single-plane cooling system). This cooling system worked much better

 

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1 hour ago, SDman said:

The "Micky Mouse gearbox"(our partsman's name for the feeder gerabox since it looks like Micky Mouse's face and ears) runs about $3K for a reman unit with a good core. To install the new top feeder shaft with the greaseable spline coupling is $2200 or so, and most of the time when you do this repair you will install an $1800 feeder chain as well. Now if your dealership uses the new special tool with a laser to properly check the alignment of the gearcase and shim the gearcase it can run you $9-10K once labor is all figured in. Sometimes you can just replace the output shaft on the gearbox and its only $600 or so instead of buying a whole gearbox. Also, if the stripper bar for the top feeder shaft is cracked, that's another grand for it. Adds up fast.

As far as cones and cages, that is a problem CNH has been fighting for several years now on the Flagships. Cones and/or cages are wearing out in 4-500 hours in some places, even with rice/extended wear components. Sounds like the cones are going to be chromed at the factory soon-that's the only way they can make them last for an acceptable life.

I would argue the 8010s had better service life on wear components than the 20 & 30 series that replaced them. Its similar to when people were complaining that 2388s were wearing out components faster than their previous 14 & 1680 models. More horsepower=more throughput=more wear.

As far as 8010s are concerned, keep in mind the 07 models(first year red tops) still had that POS plastic rotary screen that was used on 8010s and 2388s. In 2006 CaseIH bumped up the HP on the 8010 from 375 to 400, added another fan blade to the radiator, and rearranged the coolers in the cooler box. The 06 and 07 models had some overheating issues because of all of this. In 08, they used the better rotary screen(thanks New Holland) and had the coolers all stacked in one row from top to bottom(this was referred to as single-plane cooling system). This cooling system worked much better

 

To be fair there are a lot of flagship combines in the area and these guys are the only people to have lots of problems . All the other ones just seem to go and go everyday other than the chopper bearings a couple years ago. They must have been in with the new alignment tool this spring they were talking at dealership how they were checking all the combines they sold.

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I have made two of the feederhouse gearbox repairs this fall. 7240 and 8230. Case IH has paid for some of the parts on both machines. They say the bracket on the feederhouse for the gearbox was not welded on correctly from the factory. Because we are a small dealer and maybe only sell one new combine every 2-3 years we did not buy the special laser tool and instead I made one using a bore sighter and cardboard as a target. Neither one ruined the gearbox and just had to replace both the rock trap beater output and sprcket output. Also installed new beater and sprocket and chain and I believe the final bill was around 8500.

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We went from a 2388 to a 7010 in 2009. Absolutely no comparison between the two machines. There was a small learning curve with he 7010 but it was short lived. Since have owned aa 7120 & now a 7230. When we traded for the 7010 we purchased a 36' 2160 draper & converted the 3212 (20') that we had on the 2388.  After a couple years traded for a 40' MacDon which we are still running. Went from the 3212 to a 3408 (30') in 2012, Latter traded for a 4412 & traded it a year later for a 12r Gerringhof. The Gerringhof was the first real  corn head we owned since we traded a 1083 for the 3212.  JMO, but the 2388 isn't a true 12r machine (even in 20s), just doesn't have the capacity to handle all the material going thru the machine.   A 7xxx flagship will handle a 12r corn head without much problem.

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Interesting you say that about the 4400 series heads boog. I thought maybe they had it figured out now and would be better than a Gerringhoff. I traded a 1063 in 2009 for a new Gerringhoff. No comparison. A 1063 was a good head in its day.  I really like the Gerringhoff. Don't think I'll be looking at 4400 series heads then when it's trade time.

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