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Cooter

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Posts posted by Cooter

  1. 1 hour ago, Injpumped said:

    actually, the main housing is different too. The std duty DB uses advance plugs with about 4 threads, about 1/4" long, the heavy duty DB and all DC with advance use the long advance plug threads, about an inch long. The pilot tubes all should protrude the same distance, .300" by the tool. The shaft is supported in the back simply by the rotor.

    Would you recommend the bronze or anodized aluminum for the 282?

    The pump shop said it was going to be $200 to put a new bushing in. 

  2. On 5/23/2020 at 11:52 AM, Injpumped said:

    your pilot tube looks to me like a heavy duty steel one, like the 361/407 use on the DB or the DC pumps. Those are usually used along with a drive assembly with it's own front support bearing. Even on an AC with a DC like a D21/210/220, they use a separate drive adapter which has it's own bushing to support the shaft. 

    When I took it in the first time they told me that it was anodized aluminum, but it seemed pretty hard.   I have learned SO much about these pumps in the past few weeks and all the major differences that they have; basically that only the aluminum casing is the same, everything else is different.  

    This pump originally came off an 806.  I put it on here 5 years ago when the torsional vibration dampener came apart on the original 706 pump.  As a matter of fact when they were rebuilding this and setting it up, I learned that the internal timing advance was different between a 7 & 806.  So I have to account for the total timing with the engine running so I don't get a bunch of diesel knock.

    I played around some older core pumps that I have and discovered that I need to have a brass bushing in this one on the 706, not the hardened steel.  The bronze bushing appears to be longer and doesn't have the long taper in the front. 

    What carries the load on the rear of the shaft?

  3. On 5/22/2020 at 7:05 PM, nate said:

    The drive gear that has wear or pitting on the gear I would throw away.   It will only chew up the other gears.    Have you mic’ed both driveshafts where they ride in bushing?    Are they comparable?

    It's not as bad as it looks, sandblasting it made it look a lot worse than it actually is.

    On 5/24/2020 at 10:11 AM, RBootsMI said:

    Is the spring/ plunger that goes into the front of the pump shaft ok, does the spring have any tension to it anymore? 

    Spring and plunger is Ok, but I am pretty sure that isn't where my problem is.

  4. I'm starting assembly, but I wanted to double check a few things with you all before I finished.

     

    Bushing is flush with the back cover.

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    How much of a gap is there suppose to be?

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    Even more important is, does this movement seem excessive?  The pump shop said that the bushing and shaft were tight, but this seems like A LOT being that I replaced the idler shaft bushing and it wasn't really even that wore.  I can see this causing excessive gear wear.

    64EEA6F6-6A1B-4D2F-808B-D213BBD0C21E.gif

     

    The old gear has been rubbing on the front cover.  I don't know if it did that whilst it was chewing itself apart or during normal operation....

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  5. I guess the reason that I keep circling the wagons with this is because I have not found a cause of the failure, which is really bothersome.  And because no one has chimed in saying that this a relatively common problem, then I assume that it isn't.  Which means that either that this was a weird fluke and may not ever happen again OR I haven't come across the problem yet; so either one of these two can cause it to happen again.

  6. So I got my pump back from the shop yesterday.  It cost me $75 for them to put it on the calibration stand to re-check it and not find anything wrong.  They guy who works on them has been doing it for 42 years and seemingly knows these pumps backwards and forwards, so I trust what he says.  He said it wasn’t out of spec at all and ran out fine without any noises.  He kept saying how lucky I was because it doesn’t take much deflection to bind the rotor into the cam ring and seize the pump. He said the stresses of the gear teeth climbing each other is shocking to him that it didn’t bind enough to cause the drive shaft to snap; he just kept saying how lucky I was that it didn't damage the pump internally. He also said the drive shaft was straight and serviceable.  They rechecked the drive bushing protrusion and that was in spec, so it's got a clean bill of health.  Whether there was actually anything wrong internally or not, I will never know, but I am inclined to believe him.  

    SO, that leads me back to square one:  What caused it?


    This is the bushing in the idler gear and you can still see the machining in the bearing and it is tight.  I was going to put a dial indicator on it when I put it back together to check backlash, but I don't see this as the failure.

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    This is the pump drive gear.  There aren't any abnormal wear patterns, chipped, or broken teeth.  There is some witness marks where it saw some abuse chewing the teeth off pump gear.  Probably the reason why is because this is machined steel where the pump gear was cast.  Do you think it is reusable?

     

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    I have a spare idler gear, although it isn't in the greatest shape.  There is some pitting on the face of the teeth, which may not really matter.

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    I found this interesting upon closer examination.  There is an odd wear pattern on the pump drive gear where the defacing of the teeth moves to the middle of the tooth where as others are the full width.

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    Here are my choices of pump drive gears, one with and one without additional timing adjustment. Is that additional timing adjustment advantageous?  Or better yet, why was it necessary?  Specific application? 

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  7. I have a 706 and an 806 both have bad torque amplifiers now. 

    Problem #1, Hard use/abuse:  The 806 is the most recent and untimely death.  This has always had a strong TA and never given any issues.  It was replaced by the original owner in 94-95 at the dealer and has never really had any hours put on it after that; when I put seals in pto drive shaft his initials and date was written in paint marker. It sat for 10 years before I bought it and it only has 4500 hours on the meter now and he told me when I bought it that he had the “heavy TA” put in not that long ago.

     So…..my wife and son were helping me fit ground this past week with the field cultivator.  They know that when they use the TA to make swift full strokes with the lever so that there isn’t any slippage.  Well, I’m not exactly sure what happened while they were at the helm, but the next day when I got on it to finish up the field…….  I pulled back on the TA at the headlands and it chattered/shuddered, but grabbed on the low side and kept going.  However, on the next hill I pulled back the lever and we came to a stop.  Now, I’m no stranger to weak TA’s and know that sometimes if you push in on the clutch and give it a second or two stuff will stop spinning and grab; but not this time.  Now maybe it was purely coincidental and the 25 year old TA was close to death when we started that day OR it got abused somehow; but it would be pure speculation at this point, because no one is fessing up to any foul play.  With no load on the tractor it will move under its own power on the low side, but touching the brakes will bring it to a stop.

     

    Problem #2, the 3 count slugger:  The 706 is one of our primary haying tractors because the 301 diesel uses hardly any fuel and is pretty nimble. I don’t know the history of this tractor at all.  I rescued it from a fence row 706 fence row project and replaced the tired 263 gas with a 301 diesel from a combine.  Anyway, this TA works with a 3 count when engaging hydraulically on the high side.  But below 1500 RPM regardless of what you are doing,  whether cruising around the field moving bales or plowing at full throttle, if you lug it to 1500 rpm, it will catch.  Every. Single. Time.  If you are slowing down, or going down a hill, and pull back on the TA lever, you can give it a 3 count and the holding clutch will engage and hold.  When baling in direct TA and the bale is ready, I push on the clutch to tie the bale and pull the TA lever to the low side.  As the bale it tying the tractor will lurch slightly, letting me know the low side is locked and ready to go.   If you stupidly pull the lever back above 1500 rpm, you’re coming to a full stop – every time.  When moving the lever to the direct side and trying to start moving again, the engine will labor momentarily, then a loud “pop” comes from the transmission and away you go; it only does it when you have stupidly pulled the ta lever above 1500 back thinking it will catch and come to a stop.   Now, I know you’re thinking, “this thing is about to grind itself into pieces” and maybe you're right, but it has been doing this for the past 5 years and is consistent in what it does.  So much so that I have instructed people how to run it this way.  And I thought for SURE it would have grenaded itself by this point, but it just keeps on going.  I have yet to have a single TA apart so I can’t tell you what is going on during these times, but it probably isn’t by design.

    I realize I am going to have to bite the bullet and fork over $1000 each for working TA’s.  The 706 works, kinda; I mean it’s usable to a certain extent.  But the 806 is a direct drive only tractor now, so this one probably needs it first.

    I always thought that TA's just died all at once like the 806 did, not cling to life and giving hope of healing itself like the 706 does.  I was reflecting on the amount of money and time I have to spend now to fix the 806 and pondered if it would have just been quicker to have fit the field myself when I decided to write this.......... but I guess I'll never know.

  8. 10 hours ago, Maynard said:

    Put shim washers behind the bracket that bolts to the side cover on the engine.

    Adjust it so the seal glands on the ends of the tube are square in their bores. 

    Hhmmmm, this tube doesn't have a bracket 🤔.  Nor does it appear to have ever had one

  9. 3 hours ago, farmall666 said:

    THAT TUBE IS STILL AVAILBLE NEW FROM MOTHER CASEIH.JUST REPLACE IT NEW...

    Oh wow, it sure is.........for a mere $383.80 🥺.  So at that price I have some room to explore some other options, but will certainly circle back to this should I get in a pinch.........

     

  10. 12 hours ago, Injpumped said:

    I bet it's anodized aluminum, ASH industries makes nice replacement pilot tubes, many pump shops use. They work great, are dark grey, so many think they are steel, but they are not. I cannot see how it could cause your issue, unless it spun out of the housing. They are held in place with epoxy.

    This pump has he anodized aluminum bushing in it and felt tight with the shaft inserted, no excessive play at all.

  11. 49 minutes ago, 460 said:

    Boy thats a odd one.  I would say the idler is innocent.  I would suspect the pump drive or pump but it is weird on how it broke teeth but not touched the idler.  It does seem odd that you did just have this pump redone.  As I mentioned above the rubber on the harmonic balancer looks ok?

    Scott

    I'll do a closer inspection on the balancer to make sure the marks are still lined up, but why would the harmonics target JUST the pump drive gear?

     

    I took the pump back to the shop today along with the broken gear and shaft.  He looked perplexed and spun the pump around with the broken gear and said it didn't sound or feel abnormal.  They are going to put it back on the calibration stand and run it; I'm hoping they find something - not that they would tell me 😒.  I don't think they are dishonest, but would they say something, I donno.  Time will tell.

  12. 40 minutes ago, Maynard said:

    You are correct sir.
    The key is getting the tube aligned so the seal glands are square in the bore. Provided the bore does not have grooves worn in it.

    What makes it align square in the tube and how do you know? 

  13. I know there are a few posts regarding this, but I am really struggling with mine.   It had the orange O-rings put in when I reassembled the engine and they started leaking , so I put black rtv in the seals, reassembled, and it stopped for a while.  Now it started leaking again.  It leaks REALLY REALLY bad when it's cold and you first start it up and once it's warm it will stop for the most part, but oil gets expensive when it uses more than a gallon in an afternoon.  Anything else to try?  A thicker O-ring?  Someone told me they make a square ring?  Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

    FEDCF543-3A38-4A93-BC99-6F625DA171D5.jpeg

  14. The water pump is growly on the 706 and since I have it all tore apart, now is the time to replace it.  Mother Fiat wants $218.92 for a reman water pump, which seems outrageous.  So I cruised the net looking for aftermarket and found pumps from $80 ebay specials to $180 aftermarket supplier.  I'm sure at this point they are all made in china anyway, including CNH, so it's a matter of supporting small business.  As of late, I have had bad luck with CNH having some over priced foreign parts.  If I am going to buy foreign stuff there are a lot of other aftermarket people who charge way less and I can support a local business too.    Is there someone who has has a good source for good quality water pumps?  This spends a lot of time in the hay field during the summer, so the higher quality the better; anyone I should stay away from?

  15. Since we have had some rain I finally got it in the shop and tore it apart, and this is what I found.  The idler gear is tight with no wobble or excessive backlash.  I was honestly surprised to see that it still had all its teeth, I thought for sure it would have some broken or chipped ones.  I have not taken the pump back to the shop yet because I wanted to see what failed, but when I slid the shaft back inside the pump, it feels tight too. 

    So now the question of the hour: what caused it?    Was it the new pump  or purely coincidental that the gear failed only 10 hours after installation?

    So I obviously don't want to reassemble with a new gear and an existing problem to have it come apart again.

     

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    This struck me as odd, these witness marks weren't on the shaft when I took the old pump off.  Was it caused by the pressure of the gear teeth trying to climb or something inside the pump?

     

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    Was this a probable cause of failure or result from the stress of chewing off teeth?  

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  16. On 5/7/2020 at 9:39 AM, Diesel Doctor said:

    I had a similar issue when a mechanic at a dealership and this is how it went.

    Farmer brought in his Roosa Master, locked up off a 706D. He wanted it fixed so I put in a new hydraulic head and driveshaft and had him on his way in a short time. I asked him if he wanted me to install it and he said he knew very well how to do it.

    Farmer installed and that one locked up in about 30 seconds. Therefore, I was an idiot so he took it to a pump shop for a rebuild.

    Farmer installed and that one also lasted about 30 seconds.

    He came back to the dealer and ordered a brand new Roosa Master as no one, according to him, knew how to work on pumps.

    I stopped his rant for a few minutes and asked him to bring it in. That enraged him until he said, WHY? I said because if that new pump locks up, the dealer is then on the hook and has to replace it. If he puts it on, and it locks up, he pays. That must have struck a chord.

    The next morning the tractor was in the shop. I put on the new pump and was timing it. I went past the mark so I backed it up. The pump continued to turn the same way. ALL STOP! The pump came off and I slid a crescent wrench on the pump shaft and moved it about 2 inches up and down. There was a loud clunk in the front cover when that happened.

    The front cover came off and there was the idler, between the crank and pump with the Timken tapered bearings trashed and it had pulled the bolt and threads out of the block. I replaced the bearings and was trying to come up with a way to fix the block. (Before I knew about Heli-Coil.)  The owner showed up, was told what happened. He grabbed the flat plate that was against the block and the idler and disappeared. He came back an hour later with the idler center welded to the front engine plate. I told him the pump had to run with less than five thousands deflection and he was on his own if the pump seized. He said to put it together.

    To this day, if still running, this is the way it was fixed. I certainly hope no one ever pulls that engine apart to see how this was cobbled together.

    I would guess your hydraulic head on the pump is locked up and the drive shaft is twisted off. You can pull the pump and if the shaft is broken, go to work and pull the front end off and the front cover. Hope you have better luck with this than I did?

     

     

    Nope, pump is fine and spins freely. That is what I was expecting to find too was a seized pump with a broken shaft.  But everything looks ok from the outside.   I'll obviously know more when I tear it apart, but we have been in the fields, and although I really need the tractor on the planter, I'm going to keep going without it.

  17. 4358B80B-C79E-4CDD-B43A-82933DDAA076.gif

     

    I was expecting a bushing or bearing that had gone bad, I didn't realize that the pump was the carrier for the gear in this application.  Regardless if this looks normal with the pump off for a 282, there are definitely some teeth missing......

    • Like 1
  18. 4 hours ago, Injpumped said:

    The pump gear is supported by the brass pilot tube in the pump.

    I haven't had any problems for the last 600 hours.  But I put a new injector pump on Saturday afternoon and haven't put 10 hours on it yet when it failed, so I wonder if there is anything wrong with the bushing in the new pump.......

  19. This is the same engine when I installed it 5 years ago.   It's a 301 out of a combine and I put the tractor front timing cover on.  All the gears and drives are from the 301 with 18xx hours on it.  What supports the pump drive gear?  I know the idler gear has a babbit bearing in it, but the gear the pump shaft bolts on?   Is there a bushing or bearing?   I took a 5 sec video of me turning and flopping the shaft around with the pump off, but I can't post any videos for some reason. 🤔

    IMG_9442.JPG

  20. Is there a bearing the supports the injector pump drive gear?  The 361/407 has the aluminum spacer with bearings in it, but the parts manual for the 282 doesn't show anything at all.  Is the bushing in the pump what carries and centers the pump drive gear? 

  21. I just went though this with my 706, so I know what you are dealing with.  The snake oil additives will help for a while, but unfortunately you are just prolonging the inevitable.  It got me through hay season, but by fall it became worse and REALLY annoying to have it quit every time you throttled back.  I figured if it can stick at idle, it can stick at full fuel and run away, so I just choked up the $1000 and had mine rebuilt.

  22. I just put a rebuilt injector pump on my 706 two days ago and plowed about 15 acres with it today for a new hay seeding.  As I idled down on the headlands I could hear a rattle/knocking noise coming from the pump area.  Along with the sporadic noise was an erratic surging idle, so I thought “this new pump is coming apart inside”.  I almost made it home when it finally quit running; complete with a loud bang, flames out the exhaust, and white smoke, we coasted to the side of the road.  Once home I did some more investigation by removing the timing plate and could see the pump wasn’t turning with the engine. Being fired up myself, I was determined to get the pump back to the pump shop first thing in the morning, but once I had it in my hand, I knew they were off the hook.  My heart sank not seeing the sheered off pump drive shaft and grabbing it I could shake it and rotate it half a turn before coming in contact with any teeth.

    I have never heard of any stories that they have any common problems with the timing gears.  Any ideas on what failed?  A bushing on the pump shaft?  Bushing on the idler gear?  Is there a grenade pin on these engines like a Cummins?  This is a big job to pull the front of the engine off, so I’m hoping for some insight so I can keep this from happening again.

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