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Cooter

Horsepower at 8 mph....

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I am taking a serious look at vertical tillage and I'm trying to put some tractor/implement combinations together without having to mortgage everything I own. I can't afford a new one, so I am looking at used, primarily Great Plains or Kuhn, and the smallest I can find reasonable is 20' The vertical till manufactures claim 10hp per foot at 8 mph, so that puts me at a 200hp tractor to pull it. We have a 1586 and based on the threads I've read here from folks, they can live nicely at 180hp, but I'm assuming that's based on 4-5 mph? So could it handle 200 hp if you were in 1H working? I read some where on here that the rotary pump is at it's limit in that hp range and I was wondering if the 436 will live at that power setting? My fear is that when I did tillage work in 2L or 3L set for 200 hp that I would tear the rear end up. I thought the same for any tractor, could the rear end handle the power if you were at 8?

I'm looking for opinions:

1: Does anyone on here do vertical tillage?

2: Does it really take that much power to pull straight discs through the ground?

3: Does it really need to be pulled at 8?

4: At 8 mph could I make any tractor work? 3588 might be better with a 466 vs.1586 with a 436?

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The faster you spin things, the more HP you can run, it's the high torque at low speeds that usually tears things up. You just need to remember the HP/torque formula - HP = Torque x RPM รท 5252. Theoretically you could make 200 HP with 1 Ft Lb if you could spin an engine a little over 1M RPM, LOL.

I don't have a lot of personal experience operating vertical tillage implements, but I've been around them since we sell Sunflower brand equipment at work. I do know the 8 MPH+ is very important to getting the proper results with these implements, 8 MPH is considered nearly minimum speed, you see a lot of them being pulled 10-12 MPH. They work on the concept of tossing the dirt rather than shearing and manually flipping it over like a plow does.

So yes, it does take that kind of power, once the speed picks up it's just like wind drag on a car, implement power requirements go up at an exponential rate with speed. You could probably limp along at 1-2 MPH with an 4020 in front of these tools, but you would barely see any results. So, to the question can a person make do with a lesser tractor, the answer is more or less no.

As to the tractors you listed, a 1586 or a 3588. I may be wrong, I'm not the IH guru like most people here, but I believe the 3588 has the lighter/non-planetary reduction 1486 rear end? If that is the case, I would think the 1586 would be better suited to turning it up to suit your needs. Just make sure the radiator is in good shape and clean to keep it cool.

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X2 on faster is easier for the tractor. 15 or 3788 would have the planetary rear end ?

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You need to find something in the 15-16 ft range. The 15 should handle that fairly well without working the snoot out of her.

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Had a neighbor pull a 34 foot ih true tandem this spring it worked pretty good pulled it four to five inches deep. I have tuned that 7120. Your 1586 at 200 is a nice start get a s2 turbo on it set it a 225-250 and have fun

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Remove a shank or two?

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I don't know much of the details on vertical tillage or high speed discs, but I rode in a tractor pulling a Maschio unit a few years ago. That was the fastest 8 mph I have ever done! It felt like 100 mph. We were in a 180-hp Deere and we were low on power for the width of tool that we were pulling. We were working to achieve 8 mph.

My suspicion is that it will take every bit of the horsepower requirements from the manufacturer. What you don't want to do is to slow down below 8 mph. Slowing down negates the residue chopping and mixing that 10 mph will deliver.

FYI - Don't rule out European brands. They were doing this for years before we were. Maschio and the French company QNA make some nice tools as well as Horsch.

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I have a 25ft VT It depends of the angle of the gangs, I can adjust my from 0-4-8-16 degrees. The more dirt you through the harder it is to pull. I used a 3588 running 200 hp and 6.5 is all it would handle all day long.. Got a 8940 at 235 hp and 7.5 to 8 was possible. You only run a VT 2 inches deep but speed takes HP. but at 0 to f4 degrees it takes a lot less HP.

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I would tend to think the ability to get the power to the ground is going to be your limiting factor with a smaller 2wd tractor. Pulled a 28' sunflower disc with our 155 hp jd tractor. Was it happy? No not really. Did it work? Ya sort of.

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I am taking a serious look at vertical tillage and I'm trying to put some tractor/implement combinations together without having to mortgage everything I own. I can't afford a new one, so I am looking at used, primarily Great Plains or Kuhn, and the smallest I can find reasonable is 20' The vertical till manufactures claim 10hp per foot at 8 mph, so that puts me at a 200hp tractor to pull it. We have a 1586 and based on the threads I've read here from folks, they can live nicely at 180hp, but I'm assuming that's based on 4-5 mph? So could it handle 200 hp if you were in 1H working? I read some where on here that the rotary pump is at it's limit in that hp range and I was wondering if the 436 will live at that power setting? My fear is that when I did tillage work in 2L or 3L set for 200 hp that I would tear the rear end up. I thought the same for any tractor, could the rear end handle the power if you were at 8?

I'm looking for opinions:

1: Does anyone on here do vertical tillage?

2: Does it really take that much power to pull straight discs through the ground?

3: Does it really need to be pulled at 8?

4: At 8 mph could I make any tractor work? 3588 might be better with a 466 vs.1586 with a 436?

Of course a 1586 wont work!

Thats the premise of vertical tillage. You now need the tool plus a larger tractor to pull it. And you can cover acres more quickly, which the large farmers find appealing.

mean, can you think of a more efficiently designed set of rules to sell equipment???? :) Only partly kidding... I like the residue management aspect of things... Just cannot make it affordable on our small operation :(

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I would tend towards the 3588, it has two differentials to spread the load out, and will have better traction, and a better selection of gear ratios to achieve the desired speed.

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I would tend towards the 3588, it has two differentials to spread the load out, and will have better traction, and a better selection of gear ratios to achieve the desired speed.

I don't think I would have any problems getting the power to the ground with at 2wd tractor at that speed. As far as gear selection goes, I wouldn't have any more of an advantage with the 2+2 than I would with the 1586. I don't know why the speed selection is so screwy on these compared to a 1486.

3588 - who ever labeled this chart has apparently never been around IH

95D4FD87-0A81-4D07-BB81-7339A5A264E6.png

1486

DDD495C4-6EF6-45FE-ACF5-CA2515435695.png

1586

0C91BDFA-7E77-4B39-8EE4-0765B03D9EB2.png

The 1H on the 3 only vary by 1/2 mph and put you closest to 8 with the 1586. 2H would be feasible with a 1486 or any other older tractor, but 2H is out of the question for the 15 and 35 - which I never understood for the 2+2 because it's a 4 speed the same as a 1486, but 2H is completely useless for most anything.

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I don't know much of the details on vertical tillage or high speed discs, but I rode in a tractor pulling a Maschio unit a few years ago. That was the fastest 8 mph I have ever done! It felt like 100 mph. We were in a 180-hp Deere and we were low on power for the width of tool that we were pulling. We were working to achieve 8 mph.

My suspicion is that it will take every bit of the horsepower requirements from the manufacturer. What you don't want to do is to slow down below 8 mph. Slowing down negates the residue chopping and mixing that 10 mph will deliver.

FYI - Don't rule out European brands. They were doing this for years before we were. Maschio and the French company QNA make some nice tools as well as Horsch.

I've looked a the Mandako too, but there seems to be a ton of use great plains out there. I've done quite a bit of reading and watched tons of videos on vertical tillage, there are certainly agreed upon manufactures of equipment to stay away from because their design isn't a TRUE vertical till, but a modified disk. Great Plains, Mandako, Kuhn, and two/three others are the primary ones that have been recommended. I can seem find used Great Plains VT in the size that will fit my tractors, everyone else's has 25' or larger - unless I want to order new......

One thing no manufacture has states is how these machines deal with rocks at high speed. That could be a major point of contention if it can't absorb shock loads.

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I have been planting corn at 6-8 mph with unverferth zone till coulters . Never broke one yet in 13 years. We are all no till so I can't help with the recommendations for a machine for tillage

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Vertical tillage is basically no til but leveling the foliage to make a nicer seed bed. Those machines are designed to only go a max of 2 inches at a higher rate of speed to help dry out the top for optimal planting. A VT won't close tracks if used correctly. I run a 25 ft McFarlane pulled with 300 hp and run tractor at 3/4 throttle less than 2 inches deep 10 mph. Basically just chopping the stalks. If you think a vt will do the same thing as a field cultivater, then you will be waisting you money. Before you buy, check wear points vs. a new one. Because the speed you run things wear faster and when worn, they won't do what they are intended to do. My discs are in pretty good shape but the reel blades are shot after 3000 acres. And don't even consider a used one that has been run in rock country. We don't have rocks so most of them around here get traded after 5000 acres because it is cheaper to trade than put on new wear parts.

Jerry

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We pull a 24' great plains turbo chopper with 7250 or a 9150. The 9130 has its hands full with it. We have some good sized hills to pull, so the 9130 doesn't get used on it. The 7250 handles it better than the 9130.

Alan

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We pull a 30 ft GP turbo till with an 8360r Deere at 10 MPH. We also have a landoll 7431 VT. If you want to move more dirt the landoll is better, but that kind of defeats the purpose of a VT. Rock wise, the turbo till handles rocks great. We have vortex waved Coulter blades on it and it takes a pretty big rock to get stuck in it. The landoll seems like it always gets rocks stuck in it. I've been around a few different vts, they all have their advantages and disadvantages, but one thing they all have in common is they take speed and power to work properly.

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