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Ron Sorden

Bought gas today!!!

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im not following you on this?????? i dont pretend to be smart ,but are you saying the oil companys arent crooked and greedy?

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Ron Sorden - Went down to the local truck stop here for lunch today, gas is down again here at SA I see.  Now 2.76.

best, randy

Randy; bought gas at ARCO yesterday the 11th (cheapest around) and paid $2.95 gal. It hasn't gone down here at all!! It went there before Katrina and shows no sign of budging.

What can I say? I only posted that funny picture for laughs. :blush:

Ron

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My fuel man came by right after labor day and we were talking while the truck emptied. He had just worked saturday and labor day delivering fuel just to try to halfway keep up with all the calls they were getting, calls from people they had never dealt with before. Funny how everybody wants to hoard fuel at $3.10 a gallon :wacko: It is a wonder that it didn't go higher yet.

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Iwas coming thru town yesterday afternoon with the freightshaker bringing it home from the repair shop and decided to fill it ip with fuel at our suppliers station. The fuel bill was over $500 :o:o:( I asked the attendent if I needed to have approval from my loan officer :D:(

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I bought gas for a whole 2.88 last night , how should I use my new windfalls ? :P

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Ron Sorden - Went down to the local truck stop here for lunch today, gas is down again here at SA I see.  Now 2.76.

best, randy

Randy; bought gas at ARCO yesterday the 11th (cheapest around) and paid $2.95 gal. It hasn't gone down here at all!! It went there before Katrina and shows no sign of budging.

What can I say? I only posted that funny picture for laughs. :blush:

Ron

Further decline overnight, I just drove past the local SA, 2.57. It was 2.99 at the highest point, then 2.79, then 2.76, then 2.63 and now 2.57.

Listening to WCCO-AM this morning, they said Hawaii now enconters a deal where no gas is available at some stations after the price control went into effect. Anyone there know?

best, randy

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Randy - can anyone possibly be surprised by that? Maybe they should put a quota/control on the gas tax they can collect. Strange how they'll take as much as they want for whatever purpose, and then tell the producer how much they can charge.

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606 - what do you do then when it's a public utility and it's got a capped margin and no incentive to meet increasing demand? If there is behavior that looks like collusion or anti-competitive behavior, then I would say you have a basis for anti-trust. At this point, it looks like nothing more than a pinch in supply and a corresponding nation-wide run on gas stations that caused commodities traders to pay ridiculous amounts on contracts.

Once you start managing things through "programs" or government action, be careful what you wish for. There's no reason to think that with the enormous demand that exists, that smaller and less efficient companies would do any better.

Besides, what amount of revenue was that 8 billion dollars of profit based on. Is that a margin that you'd accept as an individual on an investment? Probably not. 

all good points mochad.

lets thaake them one by one.

what does ma-bell, any of the edison power companies, water comapnies use for incentive? do they do this because they like us or feel an obligation to us. don't think so. think its more a case of even with control there is plenty of money to be made.

not only that, but no refineries have been built in 15 years. this, while ceos make between 6 and 40 million dollars per year. if you double your herd of milking cows every year but only add one new milk machine every five you would be called a very poor manager, eh? how long would you stay at your job? if folks could not go without milk on a daily babsis probably for a while but it would not be on your skill. ;)

does it look like any collusion or anti competitive behavior? well, when prices go up rapidly on rumors(that would mean no factual babsis) but fail to fall on those same rumors, i suppose you could worm around the semantics but that is what you would be doing. :rolleyes:

by breaking them up, i lean more to the "more folks i have to deal with the harder it is to get a consensus".

is 8 billion a quarter in profit something i could live with. i don't know but there are folks everey day that jump into deals i would never touch. soem make out okay and some get hosed. thats' just life.

what do ya think?

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Ouch ...mochad....that hurts. I like Deere a little more than he does.

OK...

What do I think? I think that a good bit of that sounds like it borders a bit on communist or populist rhetoric.

"There is plenty of money to be made anyway" - according to who?

I don't know about the phone companies, but power has been deregulated here in PA, and we have choice. I haven't seen a commensurate increase in bills from the "moneygrubbers".

Refineries haven't numerically been increased in 15 years (its longer than that, I think), but their capacity has been increased dramatically in some cases. Mudder Fan might be able to give us more information, but most of the activity that the oil companies have been talking about lately with respect to refining is an increase in capacity in current operations. Capacity is capacity, doesn't take a new refinery to make it. Besides that, what is the real reason for no new refineries? I doubt it's oil company greed. I would imagine it has a lot more to do with regulation and local government politics making it awfully difficult to build new refineries.

You still haven't answered the 8 billion a quarter question - what is the underlying revenue, and what is the margin? It's not trivial or irrelevant here. Also, if I have a company with 100,000 employees and a CEO making 20 million dollars, and one with 100 or 1000 employees and a owner/ceo making 1 million, which one has more of an impact on my pocket per unit of product? I don't know why people get so emotionally invovlved in executive salaries, because in terms of money that you've spent, it doesn't amount to a fart in the wind when you compare it to other costs and margins in products or services you've purchased. Government regulation of the unnecessary variety, uncontrolled litigation, and a whole bunch of other useless things have a far greater impact. You've got a whole forest in front of you, and you keep staring at one tree that's all the way in the back.

As far as some getting hosed and some not getting hosed, that's fine. How about if 90% of the things you do to make money suddenly become limited by the government in terms of margin or profit, and you can't recover your initial investment? Or how about if profits on ventures that become politically unpopular (like capital gains on real estate - that one is "hard on the poor because they don't get any" - have a 75% excise tax applied? It's easy to say "that's life", but when it's you and you've invested your blood and sweat in something, then maybe that doesn't sound so great?

As far as collusive behavior - I still don't see anything other than the commodities market bidding prices up on expectations. If there's true collusion, the evidence will be easy enough to find in due time. Not much is secret any longer in a world where lots of calls are illegally taped when you don't know it, and emails are unencrypted. If you want to take away the ability to price on expectations, go ahead. But, at the same time, you should have to use rearward valuation on stocks, bonds, etc then, too. You should also be able to deal with the supply shocks that come along with not paying any attention to expectations. The function of the commodities market is to make purchase and sale available to everyone, and to smooth supply and demand by controlling price. You don't just get to use it when it makes it cheaper to buy things if you want the benefit of moderation of supply and demand. If you really would rather see long-term price constant, and varying supply, that's easy to say now, but I would bet that when the rubber hits the road and you get restricted, you (and almost everyone else) would be singing a different song.

I'm a bit disappointed to see some of your comments w.r.t. this topic after some of your other posts have been impressive. You don't get on here to impress me or anyone else, I realize, but I'm young, and I don't want people paving my path in life with any more regulation or restriction. We don't need it.

Now I have to stay 15 minutes later, but I could hardly not respond.

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"There is plenty of money to be made anyway" - according to who?

come on, you're not that naive! do you really think those that are in the know would waste a minute of thie rtime on something that wasn't there to be had?

If there's true collusion, the evidence will be easy enough to find in due time.

then again, maybe you are that naive! ;) or programmmed!

I'm a bit disappointed to see some of your comments w.r.t.

i can see how it may seem rather simplistic but not anymore simplistic than "bidding prices up on expectations."

it would be next to impossible to discuss economics on a page like this and as a result we both end up with disjointed soundbites.

and don't get carried away with the regulation factor. it is easier said than done and despite wishful thinking on anyones part, money talks. i will always be able to afford gas no matter what it gets to. not everybody can say that.

my point was, if corn goes to $25 a bushel i stop eating corn and eat rice. if gas goes to $25 a gallon the world stops eating period as there won't be any rice either.

as a person that did quite well in certain commodities in my youth it did not take very long to figure out that when any of those commodities were withheld from the market the price rose drastically. especially when the purchasers NEEDED theose commodities and as the vendors we knew that price would be paid. ;););)

commodity traders don't ever get out of the business as they get older. we just switch commodities.

suppose we substituted the word water for gas. would you still feel it was just a commodity?

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Do you honestly expect me to believe that there is rampant collusion going on, without a whistle-blower having leaked a memo, voicemail or email? It would be far too easy.

>>suppose we substituted the word water for gas<<

We're talking about gasoline, not water. Water is far easier to get, and doesn't require refining. In addition, you don't need gas to live. What was the world doing before gasoline existed? Who put up the money for exploration and infrastructure on most of the gasoline?

Also, re: the speculation that this is just price gouging, see what's happening in China right now where they've capped oil prices at a 25% increase since the beginning of the year.

>>not everybody can say that. <<

That's fine if someone can't afford gas. It's not a natural born right, and there's no part of anything granting power to the governments, local, state or federal, that has anything to do with benevolence. I sure hope it never does, either - it's certainly the least efficient method for delivering such.

Now, as far as the "programmed" comment, I would like to know who "programmed" me. Probably the only influence I have is various economics related texts and the Society of Actuaries. Hardly any of those are in bed with the oil industry. I couldn't give two shakes about oil, but I don't think that just because everyone "wants" it, that it's a born right regardless of whether or not you can afford it. And before you say everyone needs it, examine your position. There are plenty of people who live in this city who don't use any at all - very close to where my girlfriend lives, in the Friendship section of Pittsburgh, there are quite a few who ride bikes everywhere they need to go - own no cars, and at the very worst, if they need to go a distance, they can take public trans. May not be ideal, but it's hardly a ridiculously difficult existence. And before it's mentioned that some people don't live in the city - if times get tough, they can move there. There is no born right not not ever have to move from where you want to live, and I'm not about to gnash my teeth over the plight of the poor. All it does is make me produce less, which in turn does what? Lowers my output, which on a collective scale lowers the standard of living in society. It's a useless activity, and it does nothing to better society as a whole.

as far as the comment "come on, there's still plenty of money to be made", why aren't you in those businesses yourself? I'm not one bit naive about the situation, so don't lull yourself into thinking that I am.

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If Teddy Roosevelt was president he would break up these large monopoly's ,especially gas companies, of course he was for the common man and those in Washington today are on the momopoly's side, there is more money in it for them when they get out of offcice and lobby congress and attempt to influence the congress in favorite of the monopoly's own intress. The US needs a trust buster today.

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>>of course he was for the common man<<

I've always wondered what the **** that means, because I'm sure I'm not the "common man", and I'll bet the "common man" should be entitled to a lot more than me because maybe they make less money, or maybe their parents didn't put them through college? There sure is a large group of people who want to pretend that there should be no precedence to classes of people, while at the same time slamming classes they don't like. And it's rarely the classes who are making their life harder.

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The USA use to have a large middle class, the mid range worker, they make between 50,000 to $ 100,000 a year thats the class that is getting screwed, both husband and wife have to work to make ends meet, most with out enough health insurance. You take GW and his crew I'll take Teddy Roosevelt and his trust busters and will see who would help the mid range worker.

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Nowhere did I say I would pick GW as ideal leader. Given the class of losers we had last election, who looked better? And the one before...a man who loves to talk about how much influence "Silent Spring" had on his life?

I don't divide society into classes to decide who the best president will be. If that's what you do, so be it, but the things that benefit the middle class the most in the short term are far different than the things that benefit them most in the long term.

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Iwas coming thru town yesterday afternoon with the freightshaker bringing it home from the repair shop and decided to fill it ip with fuel at our suppliers station.  The fuel bill was over $500 :o  :o  :( I asked the attendent if I needed to have approval from my loan officer :D  :(

had a fella doing some work with a bobcat for me, he was whinging about the price of fuel and how much it was costing him.

it seemed that i appeared uninterested in his plight :P , so when he made a comment about how he was hurting, i felt the need too comment

pointed out the 4wd tractor and mentioned that it was $931 to fill its tank ea time :angry: , mind u fuel has gone up by around 40c/litre since then :blink: .

so to further drive the point home, i pointed towards the harvester, during harvest we will burn around 200litres per day, so then i showed him the truck, which holds 300litres, yep another $420 at current price :angry: , luckily that 1 gets filled up once a week :D

and fuel at the roadhouse in town is know $1.43/litre for petrol & $1.40/litre for diesel

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Tractor boy if I need to buy a new brain ,you sure as heck could use jenny craig .

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Ron Sorden - re>>Just now loooked again at the SA sign when coming home from the truckstop, 2.56.

best, randy

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Ron Sorden - re>>Just now loooked again at the SA sign when coming home from the truckstop, 2.56.

best, randy

it was 2.61 yesterday up here in Fargo, still got a half of a tank so i havn't filled up yet, maybe it will go down some more before i got to fill.

Jeremy

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It's still hanging tight a little above 2.80 here. The futures have crept up a couple of cents a day the last two days, and are supporting gas prices in october of just north of 2.50.

Jeremy - I think you might get a few more cents off, but don't look for too much more unless the market really takes a poo downward.

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Scratch that, Jeremy. After being up 2 cents earlier today, the NYMEX gas futures are down about 6 for the month of October.

I'd like to be able to get the prices you guys are getting up there, but I think we in the NE are affected by the pipeline having been down for a few days. Seems to be consistently high up and down the coast.

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Scratch that, Jeremy. After being up 2 cents earlier today, the NYMEX gas futures are down about 6 for the month of October.

I'd like to be able to get the prices you guys are getting up there, but I think we in the NE are affected by the pipeline having been down for a few days. Seems to be consistently high up and down the coast.

I surely dunno, the info around here says most of the petroleum products here are from Canada.

best, randy

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If I looked at the story right today wholesale gas prices have dropped 33% lately but only 4% at the pump something stinks and it's not on my boots .

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