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bmgiese

Live PTO vs Independent PTO, what is the difference

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Question: Is there a difference between live and independent PTO? Looking at tractordata.com, I see some of each.

I would like to understand because I am looking for working tractors for myself and a friend. Just want to know what I might be getting.

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I was always under the impression that they were the same thing.

jerry

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The difference may be like the difference between true live pto and the "live" pto like the Allis-Chalmers CA had which may be considered independent pto. The CA had an extra hand clutch on the axle shaft between the differential and final drive. If you disengaged this clutch you could stop and start the tractor without touching the engine clutch so the pto would keep spinning. However, you couldn't change gears without using the engine clutch, therefore stopping the pto. So, it really wasn't a truly live pto that can be turned on or off completely separate from the tractor's drive. I know those are two different types of "live" pto so maybe that is the difference between live and independent. I'm sure the terms are interchanged by some people so this could be the case for some listings and not the case for others, just a possibility. I guess I would do a little more research on the specific tractor models you are most interested in. Hope this helps.

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I'm thinking cpg is on the right track. I think an independent PTO is one that has it's own dedicated power coming back from the engine where a live PTO is a transmission driven PTO like the older tractors have, but had a 2 stage clutch like the Fergusons had, or a clutch like the AC's had. An independent pto is live, but not all live PTO's are independent.

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I'm thinking cpg is on the right track. I think an independent PTO is one that has it's own dedicated power coming back from the engine where a live PTO is a transmission driven PTO like the older tractors have, but had a 2 stage clutch like the Fergusons had, or a clutch like the AC's had. An independent pto is live, but not all live PTO's are independent.

Yes that is the difference...an independent PTO has it's own clutch...you can turn it on and off going through the field.

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The difference may be like the difference between true live pto and the "live" pto like the Allis-Chalmers CA had which may be considered independent pto. The CA had an extra hand clutch on the axle shaft between the differential and final drive. If you disengaged this clutch you could stop and start the tractor without touching the engine clutch so the pto would keep spinning. However, you couldn't change gears without using the engine clutch, therefore stopping the pto. So, it really wasn't a truly live pto that can be turned on or off completely separate from the tractor's drive. I know those are two different types of "live" pto so maybe that is the difference between live and independent. I'm sure the terms are interchanged by some people so this could be the case for some listings and not the case for others, just a possibility. I guess I would do a little more research on the specific tractor models you are most interested in. Hope this helps.

Good explanation cpg. You bring to mind a question I have had for years and never think to ask until now. I always thought the AC pto clutch worked the same as the M&W live pto clutch that I had on my Farmall M.So did M&W make the clutch for AC or did M&W get the idea from AC and make one like it for the Farmalls ?

Bill

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Would a 2 stage clutch such as a MF-135 or a IH 444 be considered "live"? Eason

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Would a 2 stage clutch such as a MF-135 or a IH 444 be considered "live"? Eason

My dad had a Fordson Major Diesel with a emblem in the grille that said "Live PTO Live Hydraulics" and it had a two stage foot clutch. So at least Ford (and I'm sure everyone else) would consider it live.

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Good explanation cpg. You bring to mind a question I have had for years and never think to ask until now. I always thought the AC pto clutch worked the same as the M&W live pto clutch that I had on my Farmall M.So did M&W make the clutch for AC or did M&W get the idea from AC and make one like it for the Farmalls ?

Bill

BILL - Neighbor had several Allis's, a WD, WD-45, D17, D19. I always heard the Hand clutch was for use with the Roto-Balers, you had to stop feeding them so they could tie off the bale so needed the hand clutch so the PTO could continue running. The later D-series with the Hi & Lo range was a nice addition, but it was no T/A in operation, pulling the lever thru Neutral made a BIG jerk in forward progress dropping a speed on tough hills while doing field work.

The Allis hand clutch was a wet multiplate clutch, durable little unit, made in-house in West Allis I'm sure. M&W probably copied the idea for their live PTO for M's & H's from Allis. The Allis engine clutch was mounted on the engine in typical fashion, the hand clutch was located inside the torque tube, or clutch housing ahead of the transmission, similar to the TA, and the PTO was run like the LPTO in IH T/A equipped tractors, depending on model, either thru a solid shaft running thru the transmission & final drives (D-12) or dropped down and back by a separate gear box, (WD/WD-45). Not positive about the D-17/19 but suspect they were similar to the D-12 only much larger components.

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I would tend to agree with the above statements. I had an AC 190XT with the "live pto" available with the N position on the power director. Was a pain when blowing snow. Power director to N hit brakes to stop, wait for the blower to clear before clutching to change into Forward, lift shift gears, shift PD into gear, clutch, PD into N shift gears, drop blower relash clutch to get blower going, PD into gear. Much nicer with my replacement for the 190XT, my 1206. Clutch, lift blower shift and go. Clutch, drop blower shift and go.

So if you are looking for ease of operation get something with live independant PTO.

Rick

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I have a MF 85 that has a 2 stage clutch, and the PTO shift is also a hydraulic clutch that "feathers" the PTO into gear. Works fairly good on a light load such as a small square baler. Don't think I'd like it on a disc mower that builds a lot of RPMs fast. LE

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Independent PTO is truly independent of the rest of the tractor, engage on the fly, etc. 66 and 84 series for example. Live PTO refers to two stage clutch application, PTO stays "live" when you depress first stage clutch, B275, B414 and 444 are examples. Live is not independent since you have to stop the tractor by depressing the clutch to engage or stop the PTO. It was a heck of an advance for its time and of course IH was not the first. I think the Cockshutt 30 and similar might have been first? Not sure but I think so. If you have ever baled hay or even worse combined with a tractor with a single stage clutch you pretty quickly nominate live or independent PTO as the greatest AG invention ever. Using a single stage clutch tractor on PTO work would make a preacher swear. You very quickly get good at snapping the tractor out of gear, or clearing plugs, or both. Thankfully that was a long time ago.

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