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international560

D358 Oil or Fuel spitting out the exhaust and heavy smoke.

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I've been having bad luck all around, I just got finished rebuilding the motor in my 04.5 Dodge/Cummins because cracked rings, and now my 560 is having fits. My 560 hadn't been started in a few weeks and I had to move it out of the garage to pull my truck in there and rebuild the engine. Well when i went to start it, it was really really hard to to start, it spun over fast but was pushing out lots of smoke and would occasionally pop and push out a few smoke rings and after lots of cranking, it finally started (which is very odd for this tractor, it always starts on first try, even in the coldest weather). Well after it started it was missing horribly and quickly filled the garage with smoke, my eyes were burning, so I hurried into to gear and got it out of the garage, it was running pretty rough and would not take fuel above an all, it would just clatter louder the more if pulled the throttle down but wouldn't speed up. After it ran for a cpuple minutes the idle smoothed a little it would take throttle, but I noticed what looked to be oil running down the stack. I quickly moved it out of the drive and shut it off and noticed it also has it running from the manifold and down the side of the block. I checked all around the head and nothing looks blown between the head and gasket and there was no blow-by coming out of the tube, so I think the bottom end is fine (the engine has very low hours as well).I have messed with a lot of engines and the last time I seen one do anything close to this , that just wasn't worn out, was an old case 1030 that turned out to be an injectors pi$$ing into the cylinder and not burning, so it was just pushing raw fuel out the exhaust. The only things that concerns me is that this is putting out a lot more, the oil level has not dropped on the dipstick though and I am really leaning toward an injector issue, maybe one totally lost a tip, I am probably going to pull them tonight, I already pull the valve cover and everything looks good from the top end and all the seals are in place so that sort of rules out a dropped valve. The tractor ran too good just a couple weeks ago for this to be a "worn out" issue. Has anyone ever had this happen before just out of the blue like this? The tractor always runs great and has plenty of power but I am afraid to run it too long right now so I guess I'll start with the injectors and hope a tip is bad without dropping a piece in a piston.

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FIRST OF ALL A 560 SHOULD BE A 282 NOT A 358 GERMAN DIESEL. OR DID YOU DO A REPLANT IN IT? START WITH LIKE YOU SAID. I THINK U WILL FIND THE PROBLEM.

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If you still had a D282 in it I would say that the glow plugs weren't working but with a D358 we can rule that out.

My guess is that the injection pump is stuck in the start position. On tractors with a shut off cable you can get them to act like that if the shut off lever is not in the correct position. Since it is out of a cotton picker it probably has an electrical shut off? I have not worked on any of those. Not much cotton grown in Minnesota.

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Yeah, It has the electric shut off and the hard start doesn't concern me as much as the oil or fuel that is running out of the manifold. I pulled the injectors and none of them were obviously bad just by looking at them (like if a nozzle had failed), I will have to pop test them and see if one is streaming, but it just seems like so much is coming out that it wouldn't just be a poor injector spray pattern. I am probably going to pull the head anyway, because there was a lot of grime around the injectors that had made it's way past the o-ring and probably fell into the cylinder. The head gasket is only $30 or $40 so I am willing to pay that to get that crud out of the cylinders. Being a cotton picker engine, the engine had lots of cotton stock on it with sand here and there as well. The engine was cleaned really good a long time ago, but I guess there was still some down around the injectors and I am worried some dropped into the cylinder when I pulled the injectors.

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I took the pipe off the manifold and rubbed my finger on the edge to show how much oil it is spitting out.

CIMG0213.jpg

And this is a picture of just cranking the tractor really quick, I was going to start it and crack the injectors lines but it was just too smoky to do in the garage.

CIMG0216.jpg

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Our 886 has the 358 in it. I notice it would "slobber" from the 1st and 2nd port of the exhaust manifold. This only seems to do it when it is running the auger at idle or 1000 engine RPMS and more in the winter. It was more fuel and condensation than any oil since it would come out thru the gasket.

Your case is way different than the slobber issue we have had. It always starts really quick. Sometimes it sounds like its chugging along at first then speed it up some and then is smooth.

If it is oil coming out too, you should see a difference in the oil level. That is puzzling. Unless diesel is filling in the pan.

See about pulling an injector line at a time to narrow it down to a specific cylinder.

Also I'm not sure how the pump is setup for lubrication, but could there be somehow oil could get in the fuel injection side? I'm probably wrong on that, but hopefully someone else will have the right answer.

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All that tractor needs is to work.

Take it out and work the snot out of 'er for half a day and all will be well. They don't like to "putz around".

Allan

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This tractor doesn't really putz around though, I pull it. It just hasn't seen much action this year because money has been tight, a friends funeral and then my truck had an issue and now I am going to miss another because this issue. The issue has me wondering because it was running perfect just a couple weeks ago, It set after I painted it and now it does this. I have had the tractor for several years and put the engine in myself, and redone everything front to back. It set around a lot the first couple years with only a couple pulls here and there (because work schedule) and it never acted this way, It has always started right up and ran great even in colder weather. I am gonna pop test the injectors soon and see how they are doing, I have been wanting to put bigger nozzles in it for a while anyway.

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I will say the same thing , put it on the dyno or put it in the field and it will get rid of the unburned fuel. Have your injectors redone and use the spec. for 3088 or a 1620 combine. If you have time pull the head and have it cut .020 along with put all new valves and seat in , this will cure your trouble. They are just lower compression motor and they just need a little fine tuning.

Danny

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If you still have the bosch rotary fi pump it is lubed by the incoming fuel.

On our little D179 it will produce strange running patterns when I forget to turn on the fuel petcock at the tank and it starts starving for fuel when it is running. Weird, is it will start loading up and smoking instead of dieing like an empty tank, I think a vacuum produced on the input line messes up the injection side.

Also if you still have the bosch, leaving it in the start position will make it run very rich, blow smoke and start missing after about 30 seconds.

How about the checkvalve in the injector return line being stuck so the injectors do not bleed off?

Good luck with the project!

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Mine has a bosch VE pump like the early dodge/cummins trucks instead of the pump like the tractors had. It has plenty full of fuel in it, but I know what you are talking about if the tank gets low, I believe it's due to the pump advancing the timing from the low fuel supply. The tractor always started easy and this just happened all at once, I am going to run through the fuel system and clean it all up and put new nozzles and reset the pressue.

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I have a DT358 in my German 1255XL. You need the timing just right, so it starts first crank without making noise like a tapping when its running, I set mine when I started it cold and very finely adjusted it before each start. Then these engines don't like idling, they need hard work. Mine will fill a shed up with smoke when its cold but hardly smokes at all under full load. If its still bad maybe the valve seals need replacing.

Hope this helps. Paul

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Mine has always smoked pretty good when cold or first started, and none after that, but it always started easy and it never had fuel or oil running out the exhaust. I think an injector might be hung open, I am getting ahold of the parts to build a pop tester and will see if I am close to right, if not the head is coming off and I will go from there.

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Did you ever find success with your project? I have the exact same issue with my 826 at the moment.... Oil or whatnot out of the exhaust and manifold gasket. I am planning on pulling the head to do the valves, head gasket, maybe shave the head like Danny talks about. I know IH has a thinner head gasket or what not, so as you can gather I am heading towards increasing compression on the ol girl. I have 6600 hours on it, and it has been an OX for me and has spent some time sitting this last year, even though it moldboarded this spring. Any solutions you may have found I will probably persue...

As a side note, my pump and injectors are recently rebuilt - I bought it with 6000 hours and I could visibly see they were recently rebuilt.

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I am not familiar with the application, so, does it have a turbo? If so, that could be a possibility.

Dennis

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My 786 with D358 smokes when starting and always has, even with a rebuilt pump. Slobbering was a problem after engine rebuild until I worked her pretty hard per Red Power folks' advice. Anyway, the smoke clears up pretty well after engine reaches operating temp. I have the stock Bosch VA6...CR rotary pump.

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Realize that they did come with a higher compression piston to eleviate this problem with hard start, stink, smoke and slobber. I always had the guys around here burn number one in the winter because they would slobber even when using on snow blowers etc. Pumps that have the electric shut off also have a hydraulic increased fuel piston in pump instead of the cable operated one for increased fuel on start up. I would sure want to know what the fuel pressure is and what the automatic advance is doing when this is happening. Also, just teasing it with a little ether, (hand controlled through air cleaner) while it is running would more than likely make her clean up much faster. I would much rather give a little ether than have an engine missfiring for any period of time.

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