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Hydro70

Tell me how a water inj. system on a pulling tractor works?

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First off I remember back in the seventies that pullers went to using water injection systems on their tractors to keep them from blowing up from the heat being generated and second question is how does two or more turbos hooked up do there job over using just one, aint that a intense amount of air being sent back into the engine, seems like the pressure would explode the engine, Ive never really been told how all this works and so on. Tell me more stuff on pulling tractors that you see but dont really understand how it all works :huh:

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I'm no expert, we'll start off by saying that right away! But I'll try & answer best I can, based off what I've seen.

Water injection can be done several ways. You can spray it just ahead of the compressor wheel of the turbo. Most will call this a "wet" turbo. The water does need to be in a spray form, but the turbo can & does do some of the mixing of the air & water. Some say its hard on the impeller fins of the turbo, but on certain applications (think 3 & 4 charger Diesel Super Stock tractors) a "wet" turbo is necessary.

A more common method is injecting water thru a nozzle into the turbo crossover tube between the turbo & the intake manifold. My friends Deere superfarm is this way. One key element is the jet needs to be indexed, so the water sprays downstream into the intake, & not try & spray against the direction of the air movement. I think this setup takes a lil higher pressure pump to push the water, but its a common setup.

Another setup I've seen, mainly on 400 series IH engines, is the drilling & tapping of the cylinder head on the intake side, for six ports, allowing a water jet to be installed into each intake port. Don't know much more about that one, other tan I'm sure there's a lot of plumbing involved.

I can't say much on the multi-charger engines, because I've never been around them. All I do know, is that they don't have quite the compression that a normal diesel has, and they sure love their ether to get going, mainly because w/ a lower compression, they can't build the heat up right away to get fired. One of the guys I work used to work with now is a key guy w/ the Chance Encounter DSS tractor. I haven't seen them pull yet, but I'm hoping to see the tractor in Wisner in a few weeks.

I'll leave more to the experts.

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Pretty much what Matt said. Its also boost activated when it gets to a certain point. Some have a belt drive pump, and some have a crank to pump type mount. Theres many different options when it comes to water injection.

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I remember water injection being used on the turbojet engines in B-52 bombers and KC-135 tankers for added takeoff power years ago. I think the newer turbofan jet engines do not use or need water injection.

Don't ask me what this has to do with this tractor pulling question though. :ph34r::P

Rick G.

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I remember water injection being used on the turbojet engines in B-52 bombers and KC-135 tankers for added takeoff power years ago. I think the newer turbofan jet engines do not use or need water injection.

Don't ask me what this has to do with this tractor pulling question though. :ph34r::P

Rick G.

Thats where the idea got started for tractor pulling.

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hi dad has a 47 d jd that has the factory water burn setup on it. you had to use straight water or alcohol in the radiator i think. dale

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Is the water injection constant, and the fuel amount changes with the throttle? I had always thought that when the smoke went from white to black that the water was going away and the fuel was being opened up.

Also, to add to Hydro70's questions, tell me about dry blocks. As in no coolant. Are all the Super Stock and Pro Stock engines dry? What is the reason?

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We use a boost sensor in the crossover pipe set at 20 psi to turn our electric pump on. You feed power to the sensor and when it gets to 20 psi it closes the circuit and kicks on the pump. From there we feed a small aluminum block with 6 outlets on it. From there it goes to each individual cylinder(port water injection). It has been fool proof until this year. I think the sensor is shot but haven't gotten anything to work right with it yet to be 100% sure. We also have an override switch on the throttle to kick it on if it doesn't work with the boost sensor.

Feeding the water into the turbo is tough on the wheel. With the rpm's the turbo spins, the water is just like putting sand into it. You usually need a new compressor wheel after 40 to 50 hooks. We have always went into the crossover pipe or used the port injection.

The multi-turboed tractors usually run a small cubic inch, under 540, there are a lot at 504. They use stages to build their boost. They start with a smaller one and feed a bigger one. Just add a bigger one until you have as many as you want, 2,3, or 4. The end result is about 120 to 150 psi of boost and a heck of a lot of power. Running that kind of boost, the larger cubes don't hold up very well. They also girdle the block. That means the make a spacer to put between the main cap bolts and the main cap to hold the block a little more solid.

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Is the water injection constant, and the fuel amount changes with the throttle? I had always thought that when the smoke went from white to black that the water was going away and the fuel was being opened up.

Also, to add to Hydro70's questions, tell me about dry blocks. As in no coolant. Are all the Super Stock and Pro Stock engines dry? What is the reason?

Not all supers and prostocks are dry. Pretty much all the supers on alcohol are dry. There are some diesels that are but not to many.

The smoke going from grey to black is when it finally builds enough heat and boost to burn all the fuel. I think most of the more sophisticated water set ups use a valve that opens with the boost pressure to give it more water or less depending on the boost pressure. So the water will come on slowly as boost and heat begin to build in the engine.

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My 407 block is gonna be dry. I had it filled for strength purposes, simply because it was bored out. I don't plan on running it any longer than runs down the track, so it should be fine. I'll still have water flowing in the cylinder head. Hope stuff works like I have planned, darn thing is still on the stand. :mellow:

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let's keep learning...

what happens mechanically when a tractor "runs out of boost" toward the end of the track? you all know when it looks like they're gonna' take it right out the end and "WHOOSH..WHOOSH...WHOOSH" it flutters down and dies.

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So why add water?

In my mind, it would be one way to increase the octane rating of a given fuel, that is to say make it more stable and able to operate (no premature detonation or "pinging") under huge compression ratios or very high boost levels. Then again only contact I have ever had with water injection is with gas motors, not diesel.

I did run into a fella once that claimed that the water turned to steam during ignition and that the resulting steam expands so forcefully it generates power. Seemed shaky to me as I would think anything that displaces fuel and or oxygen you would not want to charge your cylinder with.

So, what is, are, some of the theories behind water injection?

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let's keep learning...

what happens mechanically when a tractor "runs out of boost" toward the end of the track? you all know when it looks like they're gonna' take it right out the end and "WHOOSH..WHOOSH...WHOOSH" it flutters down and dies.

Not a 100% sure but I think when the engine lugs down at the end of the track it isn't getting rid of the exhaust. The exhaust then starts to turn harder forcing it to snuff out.

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So why add water?

In my mind, it would be one way to increase the octane rating of a given fuel, that is to say make it more stable and able to operate (no premature detonation or "pinging") under huge compression ratios or very high boost levels. Then again only contact I have ever had with water injection is with gas motors, not diesel.

I did run into a fella once that claimed that the water turned to steam during ignition and that the resulting steam expands so forcefully it generates power. Seemed shaky to me as I would think anything that displaces fuel and or oxygen you would not want to charge your cylinder with.

So, what is, are, some of the theories behind water injection?

Water is oxygen(H2O). The more water you can get in, the more oxygen your feeding the fire. The reason for water is to be able to set everything else on the edge. You can set your timing hot and your fuel low, add water to keep it cool and hopefully reach your max hp.

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So why add water?

In my mind, it would be one way to increase the octane rating of a given fuel, that is to say make it more stable and able to operate (no premature detonation or "pinging") under huge compression ratios or very high boost levels. Then again only contact I have ever had with water injection is with gas motors, not diesel.

I did run into a fella once that claimed that the water turned to steam during ignition and that the resulting steam expands so forcefully it generates power. Seemed shaky to me as I would think anything that displaces fuel and or oxygen you would not want to charge your cylinder with.

So, what is, are, some of the theories behind water injection?

Water is oxygen(H2O). The more water you can get in, the more oxygen your feeding the fire. The reason for water is to be able to set everything else on the edge. You can set your timing hot and your fuel low, add water to keep it cool and hopefully reach your max hp.

You are not splitting molecules, at least I don't think you are freeing up the oxygen and using it to oxidize your fuel. I think you would need to run an electric current through water in order to split the hydrogen and oxygen. I do not think the oxygen component in a water molecule is avail to oxidize your fuel. Then again I am not a physicist, and maybe it is. If it were me and I was trying to introduce oxygen or and oxidizer I would be leaning more towards nitrous oxide. It seems to work well.

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Oxidizers are illegal for the most part. Every pull I have ever been to is one fuel.

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Water injection and supercharging both came into perfection in WW2 era aircraft, think P-47, Corsair, Me-109... ways to pump more fuel and air into an engine at rarefied altitude and maximum power needs without dragging a ton of extra weight along. Almost the same needs as a pulling tractor. The diesel engines on pulling tractors are decompressed to where they won't start and idle properly until the turbo boost puts them back to where the diesel will ignite itself properly again.

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The diesel engines on pulling tractors are decompressed to where they won't start and idle properly until the turbo boost puts them back to where the diesel will ignite itself properly again.

A lot of the engines are starting to use the stock compression ratio's. I know the superfarm class is using a higher ratio. Not real sure about the prostocks or the super stock classes.

Water injection will also cool the inake air, compressing more air into the cylinders.

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Oxidizers are illegal for the most part. Every pull I have ever been to is one fuel.

Maybe I am confused, in your earlier post you stated, "Water is oxygen(H2O). The more water you can get in, the more oxygen your feeding the fire." which, if that statement were true would mean that you would be using water as an oxidizer and after reading your current post would be illegal anyways.

I am saying water injection is not used for any type of "adding oxygen" effect. In fact, I propose that just the opposite is happening. The very fact that water does not burn is what lets you run lots of advance and relatively lean mixtures.

Then again I am totally open to the possibility that I am all wet and am way off base here. Also please note, not picking a fight by any means. I just dig on this stuff and totally look forward to hearing other views and maybe learning a thing or two.

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ENMIM is right here. Water (2 parts H and 1 part O) is solely used to cool the intake air and final combustion temps. It cannot be effectively split to add oxygen. Nitrous oxide (1 part N, 5 parts O) may be used to do this, but dont get caught doing it (like Danny Dean did). The water added before the intake manifold is traditionally used to cool the incoming air in order to protect the turbos and intercool the intake charge to a manageable level. The nozzles placed in the intake ports are more specifically used to control what the final exhaust temperature is for each cylinder. Some cylinders tend to run hotter than others and the water added at this point is simply used to put the fire out to a point where there might be something resembling a piston inside that cylinder at the end of the run. If the exhaust temperature is not managed, the pistons resemble wax that has been hit by a blowtorch very quickly.

As for the color of the exhaust turning colors... The gray smoke that results while building boost is simply alot of fuel and water that are not burning properly. The gray comes from black smoke that has become cloudy because the water system has overloaded the system and come on too quickly. Once the motor has gotten on top of things and created enough heat, the smoke will return to black as the water is not overwelming the system. Most times the water comes on in stages as the intake pressure increases. Its been better than a dozen years since I had any interest in looking at one.

The absence of coolant water was originally done to remove weight from tractors that were desperate to lose pounds in the light classes. Pretty soon it was noticed that parts lasted longer. Elvin Domann runs an AGCO Pro Stock and is not afraid to admit that while running Allis Chalmers motors, they found this worked much better for them as the cylinder head would not suffer thermal shocks from extreme heat and pressure that resulted in cracked or broken heads while running coolant. Many Pro Stock and Super Farm tractors are trying either dry heads or blocks (or both) in effort to both improve thermal efficiency and improve reliability of components. Cylinder sleeves can be made thicker and will remain more dimensionally stable under extreme heat and pressure due to having the iron of the sleeve where water used to be. Dry cylinder heads also retain more of the heat created by combustion and use it to start the thermal combustion cycle on the following power stroke. This is also an advantage as this heat energy is not used to heat water which takes more energy to heat than the cast iron of the engine components.

Engines that lug down at the end of a pull may be suffering from a tuning or design fault. If for instance, the turbocharger system creates 200psi in the intake manifold, at full wind, the exhaust pressure on a very efficient setup may be higher than 150psi. As the load is applied, this terribly high backpressure increases and the motor, more literally than you think, is choked out. Superfarm pullers have seemed to address this issue VERY well and have increased exhaust flow and exhaust cam duration so that when they are faced with lugging so hard, this back pressure does not rise so dramatically. It is heat and not pressure that drives a turbo.

These engines are running a lowered static compression ratio. Somewhere around 14:1 for PS and SF and lower to near 13:1 on multicharger tractors. To be completely correct, Dr Alfred Buchi was running engines along these lines as early as 1909 (and to the tune of 71psi of boost). It is believed he could have done much more, but the materials of the day were vastly inferior to what they had in even WW2. Material science is what will lead to many of the next great break throughs. I dont mean exotic metals either. Just that the steel and aluminum is cleaner, of more uniform grain composition, and greater tensile strength and toughness. Better designs will take better advantage of these superior designs and show up with superior performances on the track.

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Water injection is used to lower the temperature in the engine cylinder.

WAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYY back in the old days (before multi turbo setups) Intercoolers were used. They worked well with a single turbo setup. When a 2 turbo setup was installed Intercoolers tended to EXPLODE as they are unable to withstand the boost pressure created. NTPA outlawed intercoolers for obvious safety reasons.

To keep the diesel engine "cool" water was injected into the intake air stream. Due to the high temps these engines run in a very short period of time, the water vaporizes and "cools" the intake temperature, sometimes only 100-200 degrees F, but that is enough to keep the pistons from melting and the engine running.

You can use multiport injection (1 per cylinder) or a single large spray tip, depening in the turbo setup and the tractor you have (SS vs SF).

I found the Simpson valve to be the simplest to use and operate. Set it and forget it. A few guys try to manually activate the water and they either add it too soon (put the fire out..lots of white smoke) or wait to long (melty pistons....VERY, VERY, VERY bad on the wallet!!!)

When a diesel SS or SF is at the line, and hooked to the sled, watch the exhaust smoke and listen. It will turn from blue to white to grey to black. You will hear the turbo(s) spool up as the exhaust color changes. Sometimes you see a puller start to "wind it up" only to back off and start over. Many times thier water is not coming on soon enough or to soon.

Not every Diesel SS or SF needs to make a jet black tornado exhaust to have HP....Look at the IH 3688 WAR EAGLE of Dickie Sullivan...

WAR-EAGLE.jpg

Compare that to Esdon Lehns IH 1486 Red Line Fever.....

lehn.jpg

Both are making HP.

Of course for those who are thinkin "green" or "eco friendly"....(you prefer alky SS), none of this applies......just envision a single engine modified with SS "sheet metal" atttached.......that's all you are seeing. NOTHING ELSE.

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I remember water injection being used on the turbojet engines in B-52 bombers and KC-135 tankers for added takeoff power years ago. I think the newer turbofan jet engines do not use or need water injection.

Don't ask me what this has to do with this tractor pulling question though. :ph34r::P

Rick G.

Yeah Rick, we used water/alcohol injection in the J47-25 engines on our old B-47B's too. The Old Bird would burn up 600 gallons, (100 gallons in each engine) in about a minute and a half on take-off roll. It increased the power (thrust) about 20% by creating more mass at the engines' tailpipes...just more push against the static air. Just like in the tractor engines, the water/alcohol wasn't introduced to the engine until it had reached 100% rpm and the exhaust gas temperature stabilized at about 600 degrees C. Those old airplanes desperately needed more power for take-off as their conventional axial flow engines didn't have near the static thrust that the newer turbo-fan type engines do. Actually most the newer airplanes have gobs of reserve power. Added power was especially needed it you were planning a takeoff during the warmer times of the day because the air was much lighter(thinner-less dense). Higher field altitudes and desert climates were not good for jet airplane operation with heavy takeoff weights. I don't remember if the alcohol we used was methanol or ethanol but as I recall it was about 30% of the combination. It looked and felt like machine tool high speed cutting coolant (holstein milk). The alky helped the combustion process, eliminated freezing and component corrosion, and helped lube the high pressure pump needed to force the stuff into the combustion cans where the compressed air pressure was pretty high---actually only about 3 inches away from where the burn and rapid expansion was occurring. You could really feel the water/alky kick in... sorta like a weak passing gear. You ideally fired it so it would speed up your takeoff roll speed and stay with you until you had well cleared the runway and got the landing gear retracted. With the airplane "cleaned up" it didn't feel too bad when the W/A burn finished.

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I remember water injection being used on the turbojet engines in B-52 bombers and KC-135 tankers for added takeoff power years ago. I think the newer turbofan jet engines do not use or need water injection.

Don't ask me what this has to do with this tractor pulling question though. :ph34r::P

Rick G.

Yeah Rick, we used water/alcohol injection in the J47-25 engines on our old B-47B's too. The Old Bird would burn up 600 gallons, (100 gallons in each engine) in about a minute and a half on take-off roll. It increased the power (thrust) about 20% by creating more mass at the engines' tailpipes...just more push against the static air. Just like in the tractor engines, the water/alcohol wasn't introduced to the engine until it had reached 100% rpm and the exhaust gas temperature stabilized at about 600 degrees C. Those old airplanes desperately needed more power for take-off as their conventional axial flow engines didn't have near the static thrust that the newer turbo-fan type engines do. Actually most the newer airplanes have gobs of reserve power. Added power was especially needed it you were planning a takeoff during the warmer times of the day because the air was much lighter(thinner-less dense). Higher field altitudes and desert climates were not good for jet airplane operation with heavy takeoff weights. I don't remember if the alcohol we used was methanol or ethanol but as I recall it was about 30% of the combination. It looked and felt like machine tool high speed cutting coolant (holstein milk). The alky helped the combustion process, eliminated freezing and component corrosion, and helped lube the high pressure pump needed to force the stuff into the combustion cans where the compressed air pressure was pretty high---actually only about 3 inches away from where the burn and rapid expansion was occurring. You could really feel the water/alky kick in... sorta like a weak passing gear. You ideally fired it so it would speed up your takeoff roll speed and stay with you until you had well cleared the runway and got the landing gear retracted. With the airplane "cleaned up" it didn't feel too bad when the W/A burn finished.

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I remember water injection being used on the turbojet engines in B-52 bombers and KC-135 tankers for added takeoff power years ago. I think the newer turbofan jet engines do not use or need water injection.

Don't ask me what this has to do with this tractor pulling question though. :ph34r::P

Rick G.

Yeah Rick, we used water/alcohol injection in the J47-25 engines on our old B-47B's too. The Old Bird would burn up 600 gallons, (100 gallons in each engine) in about a minute and a half on take-off roll. It increased the power (thrust) about 20% by creating more mass at the engines' tailpipes...just more push against the static air. Just like in the tractor engines, the water/alcohol wasn't introduced to the engine until it had reached 100% rpm and the exhaust gas temperature stabilized at about 600 degrees C. Those old airplanes desperately needed more power for take-off as their conventional axial flow engines didn't have near the static thrust that the newer turbo-fan type engines do. Actually most the newer airplanes have gobs of reserve power. Added power was especially needed it you were planning a takeoff during the warmer times of the day because the air was much lighter(thinner-less dense). Higher field altitudes and desert climates were not good for jet airplane operation with heavy takeoff weights. I don't remember if the alcohol we used was methanol or ethanol but as I recall it was about 30% of the combination. It looked and felt like machine tool high speed cutting coolant (holstein milk). The alky helped the combustion process, eliminated freezing and component corrosion, and helped lube the high pressure pump needed to force the stuff into the combustion cans where the compressed air pressure was pretty high---actually only about 3 inches away from where the burn and rapid expansion was occurring. You could really feel the water/alky kick in... sorta like a weak passing gear. You ideally fired it so it would speed up your takeoff roll speed and stay with you until you had well cleared the runway and got the landing gear retracted. With the airplane "cleaned up" it didn't feel too bad when the W/A burn finished.

B-47 sure was a beautiful old jet, wish they hadn't been before my time to see one fly. Not to hijack they thread, but any good stories from those days would be great Dukester...

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