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jass1660

? about roofing

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built a clubhouse for the kids, time to shingle it. Do I really need tar paper under the shingles with the new OSB? I had one carpenter tell me they only use it if they can't get it all roofed before it rains.

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The carpenter you talked to is an idiot and should never be allowed to touch a hammer again. He should study his code book and the directions on the shingles.

Tarpaper is what keeps the roof dry. Shingles protect the tar paper.

When you get a bit north we put ice and water shield on the lower parts of our roofs to prevent leaks. When snow sits on a roof and then melts it ice dams and the water will run uphill under the shingles. If there isn't another layer (felt) it will leak.

Every package of shingles tells you to install felt.

If OSB gets wet it will swell up to twice it's original size.

Mike

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Coming from a family of roofers since the 40's....yes :D That's my opinion and anyone else that you will ask that does a complete job here will also agree. You can build a house with the black cardboard celotex crap too and you can shingle without tarpaper but it's yours do what you want. Everything I build that is mine gets a "dry sheet" of 30 lb or 43 lb paper. 15 lb is the standard. I got smart late in my late teens looking at guys in there 50's with knee and back problems and figured there is better work to be had and went to work for Cat :) Still do a few roofs here and there.

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I believe the felt paper also serves a de-coupling function, letting the plywood sheating and the shinges expand and contract at different rates without buckling the shingles. It's no fun to walk on while you're trying to get the shingles on, but I don't believe I'd go without it. My favorite roof is old standing rib steel; still a lot of it around here that's been up for years and years. Paint it once in a blue moon and you never have to worry about wind, hail, ice storms, or shingles curling up. And with insulation in the attic and 3/4" sheeting boards under the tin (steel) we hardly ever hear it rain.

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Yes, you need the felt paper. for what you are doing, 15lb should do just fine. Something we do in valley's on a roof, or on dormers, is just ice and water shield up the whole way. If you are doing a small project one role of ice and water should do the whole roof.

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Yes, you need the felt.

The part you don't need is the shingles....put steel on and be done with it.

I'll never lay another shingle as long as I live after having a steel roof.

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Old roofers here tell me the same they told one on here, only purpose for felt is to protect the roof from water if it rains before its done with shinges, other than that it serves no purpose. We don't use it here.

If you need felt to protect against water after the shinges are on you don't know what your doing! Ice gaurd does have its place but its a different animal...............We just got done with a roof job, no felt but did use ice guard in some areas. And believe it or not, was on for 30 years with no felt under it............3 tab shinges just started to crumble is why it was replaced.............With Architectural shinges! Thank god for them!

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Hello all , If it was me I'd use it :D . I kinda like having a little more protection in something as important as a roof . With any luck you only have to do it every 30 years B) . Plus what happens if some of the shingles get blown off ? Boomer

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TP,

Good luck getting a warranty if you do not use felt (underlayment).

There is a reason the instructions are on the package.

I will go with the manufacturers instructions.

AND the felt goes over the metal edge not under it.

Mike

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TP,

Good luck getting a warranty if you do not use felt (underlayment).

There is a reason the instructions are on the package.

I will go with the manufacturers instructions.

AND the felt goes over the metal edge not under it.

Mike

What is your reasons for felt? Like the roofers here say, nobody can give you a logical reason. And I've have yet to hear one. Other than to protect the roof from rain before the shingles are on it. It doesn't provide any water protection AFTER the shingles are on, or you didn't lay your shingles right or nail them correctly. And expansion and contraction barrior from the sheeting makes no sense either, they aren't glued on...........just nailed so they are going to follow the sheeting anyhow with it or not. Other than making things misserable to work on, and a added expense it serves no purpose. The old timers didn't/and the ones who are still left don't use it, and they are far from stupid.

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Old roofers here tell me the same they told one on here, only purpose for felt is to protect the roof from water if it rains before its done with shinges, other than that it serves no purpose. We don't use it here.

If you need felt to protect against water after the shinges are on you don't know what your doing! Ice gaurd does have its place but its a different animal...............We just got done with a roof job, no felt but did use ice guard in some areas. And believe it or not, was on for 30 years with no felt under it............3 tab shinges just started to crumble is why it was replaced.............With Architectural shinges! Thank god for them!

After reroofing my moms ranch house built in 1976 which was reroofed for the first time in 2001, there was no felt used. After seeing with my own eyes that this roof lasted this long without it, none went back on. When it was time to roof the barn same thing none was used. I did how ever use snow and ice in the valleys and eaves.

Like TP says if its done right there is no reason to have it anyway. Although it is code in our area.

Scott

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TP,

Good luck getting a warranty if you do not use felt (underlayment).

There is a reason the instructions are on the package.

I will go with the manufacturers instructions.

AND the felt goes over the metal edge not under it.

Mike

What is your reasons for felt? Like the roofers here say, nobody can give you a logical reason. And I've have yet to hear one. Other than to protect the roof from rain before the shingles are on it. It doesn't provide any water protection AFTER the shingles are on, or you didn't lay your shingles right or nail them correctly. And expansion and contraction barrior from the sheeting makes no sense either, they aren't glued on...........just nailed so they are going to follow the sheeting anyhow with it or not. Other than making things misserable to work on, and a added expense it serves no purpose. The old timers didn't/and the ones who are still left don't use it, and they are far from stupid.

Fire rating-

http://www.askthebuilder.com/B59_Asphalt__...erlayment.shtml

Can you underwrite a non-payed house fire claim out of pocket? Insurance companies are looking for any and all reasons to deny claim payment these days.

Actually, within a few months, the adhesive goop on the back of the shingles does "glue" them on in a way.

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Just finished a roof last week. One section didn't have felt on it and as the shingles aged and became less effective, water got underneath and rotted out the plywood below. Turned a quick cheap job into a major project and cost the home owner lots of money. Not to mention code and warranty issues. If all goes perfect, maybe you won't need it, but let one little hole in a shingle let water in over a few years, and that plywood goes to crap fast.

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TP,

Good luck getting a warranty if you do not use felt (underlayment).

There is a reason the instructions are on the package.

I will go with the manufacturers instructions.

AND the felt goes over the metal edge not under it.

Mike

What is your reasons for felt? Like the roofers here say, nobody can give you a logical reason. And I've have yet to hear one. Other than to protect the roof from rain before the shingles are on it. It doesn't provide any water protection AFTER the shingles are on, or you didn't lay your shingles right or nail them correctly. And expansion and contraction barrior from the sheeting makes no sense either, they aren't glued on...........just nailed so they are going to follow the sheeting anyhow with it or not. Other than making things misserable to work on, and a added expense it serves no purpose. The old timers didn't/and the ones who are still left don't use it, and they are far from stupid.

Felt (or some approved underlayment) IS required under shingles. Here's why...

http://www.bobvila.com/HowTo_Library/Build...hing-A1535.html

I hate Bob Vila. Can't stand the guy really. But this is a decent article, and explains why it should be used. I'm in the trades myself, and could never, EVER in good conscience charge someone money for a roof with no underlayment - it's going to void their warranty, it's not gonna pass code, and it's what I'd call a half-done job. Really, at $13/ roll, why would you NOT use it??

Just my .02...

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For those who may not have considered it, there is another unrelized benifit to using tar paper as underlayment. For those who have stripped many a roof please feel free to correct me because I'm not a builder by trade but it sure makes it easier to strip a roof when you have paper and shingles that have been nailed on with convention roofing nails. I always used an old grain shovel to remove the shingles, if you start at one end you can roll the shingles the width of the paper going length ways and with some help, create a roll of old shingles that is contained by the paper.

Note: that this technique does not work so well with the cheap constuction paper that is attached with roofing staples and used on mobile and manufactured homes. I have a ream of pictures to prove it.

post-6698-1222141890_thumb.jpg

post-6698-1222142029_thumb.jpg

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For those who may not have considered it, there is another unrelized benifit to using tar paper as underlayment. For those who have stripped many a roof please feel free to correct me because I'm not a builder by trade but it sure makes it easier to strip a roof when you have paper and shingles that have been nailed on with convention roofing nails. I always used an old grain shovel to remove the shingles, if you start at one end you can roll the shingles the width of the paper going length ways and with some help, create a roll of old shingles that is contained by the paper.

Note: that this technique does not work so well with the cheap constuction paper that is attached with roofing staples and used on mobile and manufactured homes. I have a ream of pictures to prove it.

post-6698-1222141890_thumb.jpg

post-6698-1222142029_thumb.jpg

It's not always that easy. A tearoff shovel has triangle teeth with a bar at the back for prying leverage. I have torn off roofs that my grandfather put on 40 years before with two or three layers and those are the best thing for most jobs. With as many roofs as I have tore off over the years I can't imaging using a grain shovel for much more than removing ballast from a tar roof. You got lucky :lol: Most of the time a chunk 3 feet square might be a good piece to get in one shot. Some of these place with 3 and 4 layers would tear off easier sometimes because it would all come off together vs. if you were just prying off one layer because they were curled 3 tabs it would be smaller pieces.

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I've used a shingle shovel before and I didn't think they where worth the money(cheap one; probably the problem :D ). imho I can clear a lot more roof with just the old grain shovel but maybe I was just taught something different. Didn't take much more than an hour to clear the lone side of my house, although it would have been faster had it been constructed with conventional materials.

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I've used a shingle shovel before and I didn't think they where worth the money(cheap one; probably the problem :D ). imho I can clear a lot more roof with just the old grain shovel but maybe I was just taught something different. Didn't take much more than an hour to clear the lone side of my house, although it would have been faster had it been constructed with conventional materials.

I really don't know how you did it :unsure: The nails are the problem. You REALLY got lucky.

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I've used a shingle shovel before and I didn't think they where worth the money(cheap one; probably the problem :D ). imho I can clear a lot more roof with just the old grain shovel but maybe I was just taught something different. Didn't take much more than an hour to clear the lone side of my house, although it would have been faster had it been constructed with conventional materials.

Use a potato fork next time. Big flat blades, and they work fantastic for getting under the shingles - you can pull up larger chunks than you can with a roofing shovel. We always remove the shingles first, then go back for the nails. May not seem like it's as fast going over it twice, but if you'd time it I bet you'd be surprised.

-J

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Sorry, I haven't been sold yet...............Even the Bob Vila article points out why many here dispise felt, it doesn't allow the roof to breathe which is my old mans arguement against it.

Also, the tar area on shingle is on top other shinges, not sheeting.

Point here is like lime on milking barn floors, inspectors require it, does it make sense to do daily..........NO.

Other than warranty and code, I do not and have not yet seen a valid reasoning for it.

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I live in an area that gets the occasional tropical storm and hurricane. When in a high wind area you don't want to be without it, as the wind will blow water up under the shingles no matter how good a job the roofer did. The black paper can save you a lot of problems in that situation!!

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regardless of your opinion of tar paper.......

For a kids clubhouse???? who cares. LOL

Mark

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