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guypatrick

HyTran vs "Universal" power fluids

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Could someone point me to some research or statistics which compare the properties of various hydraulic fluids?

We're trying to justify the cost and effort of switching nearly everything over to IH Hytran but I'd like to see something more overwhelmingly convincing than I've been able to find to date. Of course the dealer recommends Hytran but they haven't been able to show me quantitative evidence why its better. I will grant that "Its what the manufacturer recommends" is a valid arguement but I'd like to know why its better, or different.

We did have problems with the hydrostat in a Rogator loosing power at higher operating temps a couple years ago. The manufacturer suggested switching from a universal product to a different oil (iso 100 I think) which improved the performance significantly so I have no trouble beleiving there ARE differences I'd just like to know what they are.

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I don't have any statitics or research to go by except this: My neighbor uses CASE IH HYTRAN in his JOHN DEERE 4430 tractor and 7720 combine when we need to add hydraulic fluid to those 2 vehicles. :blink: He keeps HYTRAN around for his 1086, 986, and 766.

I use my own stash of CASE IH HYTRAN if I ever need to add hydraulic fluid to my 1456, 1086, or 7220.

As a related side tid-bit here, one of my local IH techs advises me to "over-fill" my 1456 and 1086, (and I think I remember reading this advice here on the board before as well) so I keep my 1456 and 1086 between 1" to 2" above the full mark on the dip sticks.

As for my 7220, I watch to keep it right at the full mark.

My tractors themselves do not leak, but I'm afraid I'm losing fluid little by little through the various implements that I use, whether they be mine or my neighbor's.

Rick G.

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Rick, Your neighbor is taking a huge risk using Hy-Tran in a John Deere tractor.

The water retention property of Hy-Tran (and some other fluids) can cause the paper friction material in the Perma Clutch and power shift clutches to de-laminate.

Hy-Gard is also a heavier fluid than Hy-Tran. Hy-Gard is designed to completely reject water whereas Hy-Tran is designed to absorb a significant amount of moisture.

Other properties that Hy-Tran does have is a seal and o-ring swelling agent that many universal fluids lack.

Anti-foaming and the ability to rid itself of air are properties that make Hy-Tran superior to many universal fluids. (High performance power steering fluids are nothing more than re-packaged Hy-Tran)

One example where I demonstrated to a customer the value of the swelling agent....I was doing a T.A. job for an owner who refused to use anything but the least expensive oils he could find.

When I got to the part where the T.A. jumper tubes were to be removed I flipped them out with my fingers.

I then tossed the tubes with the o-rings still on them into a pan of Hy-Tran I used for soaking PTO clutch plates.

After 10-15 minutes I took the tubes out of the Hy-Tran and the o-rings had swelled enough that they had to be forced into the same holes that they had just slid out of.

The owner was there while I performed this demonstration. He finally changed his mind about our fluids.

Jim N.

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HELLO ALL, MAYBE IT'S JUST ME BUT IT SEEMS THIS TOPIC COMES UP A LOT ON HERE. I GUESS FOR MYSELF I WOULD NOT THINK ABOUT TRYING TO SAVE A BUCK IN AREAS WHERE IT CAN DAMAGE STUFF EITHER RIGHT AWAY OR DOWN THE ROAD. YEAH I KNOW IT WOULD BE NICE TO GET SOMETHING IN WRITING TO SHOW BUT I THINK ALL THE FEEDBACK YOU WILL GET ON HERE IN FAVOR OF HY-TRAN SHOULD BE GOOD ENOUGH. BOOMER

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In addition to the water absorbing and seal swelling properties of HY-TRAN, I learned at a Case-IH lube meeting once that the HY-TRAN is a straight 10W oil while most universals are multi-grade. In our area, this really makes a difference in the winter time where our chore tractors are stored in unheated sheds. I agree, it may cost more, but you can pay me now or later IMO. Good luck.

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I don't have any statitics or research to go by except this: My neighbor uses CASE IH HYTRAN in his JOHN DEERE 4430 tractor and 7720 combine when we need to add hydraulic fluid to those 2 vehicles. :blink: He keeps HYTRAN around for his 1086, 986, and 766.

I use my own stash of CASE IH HYTRAN if I ever need to add hydraulic fluid to my 1456, 1086, or 7220.

As a related side tid-bit here, one of my local IH techs advises me to "over-fill" my 1456 and 1086, (and I think I remember reading this advice here on the board before as well) so I keep my 1456 and 1086 between 1" to 2" above the full mark on the dip sticks.

As for my 7220, I watch to keep it right at the full mark.

My tractors themselves do not leak, but I'm afraid I'm losing fluid little by little through the various implements that I use, whether they be mine or my neighbor's.

Rick G.

Rick, The over filling is very important if you have any hills. Once the tractor tips just a little, there is no fluid in the up hill axle housing and the bearings get dry quick. I was always told 5 gallons over full was plenty. It is also a good idea to check the calibration of your dipstick. Just take off the casting where the top link of the 3-point attaches, and look at the end of the axles. The fluid level should be at the centerline of the axles on level ground and the dipstick showing full. When I got my 1486, the dipstick was showing full, but the oil was over 5 gallons low!

I use HyTran. When was the last time anything marked "Universal" worked for everything?

Erik

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Rick, Your neighbor is taking a huge risk using Hy-Tran in a John Deere tractor.

The water retention property of Hy-Tran (and some other fluids) can cause the paper friction material in the Perma Clutch and power shift clutches to de-laminate.

Hy-Gard is also a heavier fluid than Hy-Tran. Hy-Gard is designed to completely reject water whereas Hy-Tran is designed to absorb a significant amount of moisture.

Other properties that Hy-Tran does have is a seal and o-ring swelling agent that many universal fluids lack.

Anti-foaming and the ability to rid itself of air are properties that make Hy-Tran superior to many universal fluids. (High performance power steering fluids are nothing more than re-packaged Hy-Tran)

One example where I demonstrated to a customer the value of the swelling agent....I was doing a T.A. job for an owner who refused to use anything but the least expensive oils he could find.

When I got to the part where the T.A. jumper tubes were to be removed I flipped them out with my fingers.

I then tossed the tubes with the o-rings still on them into a pan of Hy-Tran I used for soaking PTO clutch plates.

After 10-15 minutes I took the tubes out of the Hy-Tran and the o-rings had swelled enough that they had to be forced into the same holes that they had just slid out of.

The owner was there while I performed this demonstration. He finally changed his mind about our fluids.

Jim N.

Yowza Maynard! :o

Thanks for the info. I'll inform him quickly about this, including the details and reasons that you've mentioned here! Then, it'll be up to him to take action on this. Thanks.

Rick G.

Rick, The over filling is very important if you have any hills. Once the tractor tips just a little, there is no fluid in the up hill axle housing and the bearings get dry quick. I was always told 5 gallons over full was plenty. It is also a good idea to check the calibration of your dipstick. Just take off the casting where the top link of the 3-point attaches, and look at the end of the axles. The fluid level should be at the centerline of the axles on level ground and the dipstick showing full. When I got my 1486, the dipstick was showing full, but the oil was over 5 gallons low!

I use HyTran. When was the last time anything marked "Universal" worked for everything?

Erik

Erik, OK, no hills or slopes here for me to worry about, I'm working all flat ground, so I guess I'm in good shape as far as that goes.

Thanks, Rick G.

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To be honest, I'm not convinced that Hy-Tran is the end-all-be-all. At least Maynard had some useful facts in his post instead of the usual subjective commentary, which was a nice change. The oil level info is also useful. Thanks for both items.

I went round-n-round with this topic three years ago and did a lot of research but gleaned few worthwhile facts. Could not even get enough formulation info on Hytran, and other fluids, to look at it from the tribologist's perspective. In the end, I drain the decades old fluid from my newly purchased old tractor and replaced it with a "premium" universal rated for use in IH tractors. My choice... my responsibility. In fact, I noticed an improvement in all hydraulic functions. That's as much to do with the ancient fluid being replaced as anything else, I realize, and who knows if it was Hy-Tran or not.

My plan is to have this fluid analyzed at the end of this season (three seasons in use) and see how it's held up. I'll make my decision then whether to replace it with a similar universal fluid or Hy-Tran. If nothing else, it will be a good flush oil, huh?

One thing I noted was that at two CaseIH dealers near me, their bulk fluid is NOT Hy-Tran. One was a Mystik product and the other Shell, if I recall correctly. Makes you wonder.

I'm more than willing to be convinced, but for now the difference in price between Hy-Tran and the better universal fluids is keeping me at bay without more facts upon which to make an educated choice.

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............. I agree, it may cost more, but you can pay me now or later IMO. Good luck.

What axial_al said says it all. I use Hy-Tran, you really can't go wrong putting in what the manufacturer recommends, can you? ;) Besides, lately it seems around here that Hy-Tran is less than $1/gal higher than the "best" universal fluids.

Travis

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We run tractors made by 9 different companies. There's no way that I'm keeping 9 different kinds of oils in my shop. Heck, over half of the brands of tractors we run aren't even in business any more. What am I supposed to do with them? I'll tell you, buy the best quality oil in bulk and go with it. I'll run over to JD or CIH and buy a 5 gallon or two of oil if I'm in a bind and need some quick like I was one day last week.

Call me crazy but thats the way I feel about it. Buy a good quality, brand name oil and be happy with it. That stuff in Wal-mart in the yellow jugs just doesn't cut it for me.

One of the best things we ever did was put a blue dye in our hyd. bulk oil tank. It was always amazing how hydraulic oil and motor oil looks and smells the same in a 2.5 gallon jug. Now its easy to tell the difference.

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A friend of mine drain the oil out of his 644 JD payloader.It was working fine.He was being cheap and went to wally world and got a drum of there HYD.oil.His loader stopped working when it got warm.So he went and drained it out and filled it with Cenex oil.The machine went back to working all day long. :D

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Maynard, you make some very good points concerning the difference in hyd oils, especiallly Hy-Tran & Hyguarde. However, I will say that I ran Hy-Tran for over 20 years in my 4020 PS on the recomendation of the Deere dealer I bought it from. I will add that towards the end that it was having some problems with the lower speed clutch packs (1-3). At times they would not engage when you shifted from rev into them, move the shifter to 4th then immediately back to 3rd & they worked fine. Wouldn't do it all the time. Whether that was a result of using Hy-Tran or just wear I cannot say. Other thing I might mention is that the JD hyd assist brakes will squeak with Hy-Tran. Hyguard has a lubricating addivtive for their brakes that Hy-Tran doesn't have.

After we purchased the 8310 we started buying Hyguard in bulk as well as Hy-Tran & switched the 4020 back to Hyguard. Only deere tractor we have now is the 4640 but will use Hyguard in it & Hy-Tran in the others.

One thing I will not do is mix oils. Have seen bad things happen as a result (not my own).

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changed a 806's hyd fluid the other day and used hytran, thinking it was 38.00 for five gallon, turns out it was 4 years ago, now its 57.70 for five gallon!!!!! :o:o:o flat out rediculous.

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But...you need to remember that today's Hytran from CNH is not the same as the older versions.

I don't believe that originally it was a hydroscopic (sp?) (absorbs water) fluid. I can vividly remember the hytran (genuine IH stuff) of years ago... allowing water to seperate and accumulate in the bottom of the tractor's gear cases.

Seems like I remember something about several different versions over the years.

Also - when you guys talk about universal fluid....are you talking about a universal hydraulic/gear lube or "universal tractor fluid"?

Those are two completely different things.

Universal fluid can be used in engines, transmissions and gear cases.

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I got one for ya! I had my 5088 tranny gears go bad (someone didn't have it updated). We had run Co-op HTB in that tractor for years. After the rear end overhaul, my mechanic recomended a switch to Hy-Tran. Well a day later my brakes started chattering so bad that just pressing them would shake you out of the cab! I call Case and they say, you need to come down and buy I belive it was around $80 worth of Case axle lube to dump in the back end! Maybe that HTB wasn't so bad after all!

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it was probably from the pads soaking up the last type fluid, I've never known a 88 series to have bad brakes.

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We have always run hy-tran in our IH tractors. One of those things if IH wanted something else in there they would have told us. We have never had a rear end or trany failure other than a TA i'm not say that it is the oil but I think it has something to do with it. In my mind I would pay the extra for the right oil to know that I have a little piece of mind knowing that the oil will not cause a failure. Have know a few farmers around by me run cenex hydralic oil and have hydralic problems down the line my grandpa was one of them. They said they could get cenex oil cheaper so they ran it but when steering and brakes started to act up they switched oil went to farm oil they did not have problems then but I think I would have gone to hytran right then and there. Just my two cents :D send it back if not happy :lol:

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So on my 1206 where the axle sides have seperate fills, how do you get it over full when the fill plug is below the axle?

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