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TD-5

BD-144 & BD154 Diesels

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Most of the people I have talked to about the BD-144 diesel seem to agree that they are a miserable starting engine. If the glow plugs arn't up to snuff, forget it they won't start. The saying goes " If the sun goes behind a cloud for 10 min, you will need the glow plugs. Mine is no exception & I just excepted that this was the nature of the beast. But now I wonder, My dad has the use of a B434 AG tractor for around his place & it has the BD-154 which is the same basic engine as the BD-144 with a .250" larger bore. The 154 starts like a dream compared to my 144. I know the 144 in my dozer is in good shape, fresh rebuild, inj p/p & injectors serviced, pump spill timed to engine etc, it starts about the same as before it was rebuilt.

The 154 in the B434 has a questionable history, & to say the least is long in the tooth. So what are the differences between the 2 engines:

My BD-144C : 1959 model with early style CAV BPE 4A 70R inline injection pump, Injector opening pressure = 2150 to 2200 psi.

19.3:1 compression ratio. Compression pressure = 475 to 525 psi @ 1750 RPM (???) <_<

Specs from book on BD-154 show:

CAV Model DPA rotary style injection pump, Injector opening pressure = 2350 to 2450 psi.

23.0:1 compression ratio. Compression = 445 to 470 psi @ cranking speed.

Also found some specs on BD-144A:

Same fuel specs as the BD-154 but with a 21.1:1 compression ratio, compression= 330 to 355 psi @ cranking speed.

So from what I see so far,the increase in compression ratio along with the increase in Injection pressure on the 154 would be benificial to starting.

Anyone with experiences or insite into these little Gems, please jump in :D:D

Doug

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Doug,

From my experience, I would say it is the different pump that makes the most difference in starting.

The late BD144 engines had a CAV rotary pump like the BD154 and they started pretty good as well. We have a late TD5 here (serial #3721 ADT if you want to add it the list) that has the CAV rotary pump on it. The motor is seized so I can't tell you how well it starts, but I suspect when new, it was a good starting unit.

This serial number is the highest one on your list (I think) and I am pretty sure it is a 1962 unit. It must be near the last of the straight TD5's before the "B" series. It is pretty rough and will probably not be repaired.

Don

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Big Don, great to here from you, thanks for the reply, I had the same thoughts after talking with owners of the later TD-5's with the DPA rotary pump. The consensus seemed to be that they needed glow plugs for the intial cold start, but after that the engine started pretty darn good as long as it had some residual heat in it. I'm wondering now if it was a change up in injector tip design with/or the increase in cracking pressure by itself or in combination with the later rotary pump that contributed to the easier starting. I see from the parts book there are 2 different injectors listed ; #705 431 R91 for use with the BPE pump & # 3040 870 R91 for use with the DPA pump.

I will add your TD-5 to the registry for sure, the more the better. Your right on the serial #, I don't see a higher # for the early series, If you have a picture Send it along in an E-mail & I will add it to the listing also.

How is that other project coming along, still anxiously awaiting the details of the finished machine.

Doug

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Doug,

From my experience, I would say it is the different pump that makes the most difference in starting.

The late BD144 engines had a CAV rotary pump like the BD154 and they started pretty good as well. We have a late TD5 here (serial #3721 ADT if you want to add it the list) that has the CAV rotary pump on it. The motor is seized so I can't tell you how well it starts, but I suspect when new, it was a good starting unit.

This serial number is the highest one on your list (I think) and I am pretty sure it is a 1962 unit. It must be near the last of the straight TD5's before the "B" series. It is pretty rough and will probably not be repaired.

Don

The EARLY series "500" crawlers used the BD-154 engine, before being replaced by the D-155.

I have no idea what version of the BD-154 was used.

The early 500 crawler was also available with the C-146 gasoline engine, which were the same engine

options as the 424 Utility.

My discussions with people suggest that "500" was an improvement on the T-5 & TD-5.

Regards from Michael Halsall

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My BD-144C : 1959 model with early style CAV BPE 4A 70R inline injection pump, Injector opening pressure = 2150 to 2200 psi.

19.3:1 compression ratio. Compression pressure = 475 to 525 psi @ 1750 RPM (???) <_<

My B-275 is hard to start when its cold :( but I think maybe if I did the injectors eta it would be better :unsure: I hope :o

Jake.

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Jake, just curious, what year is your B-275 & which injection pump does it have on it????

Doug

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Jake, just curious, what year is your B-275 & which injection pump does it have on it????

Doug

TD-5

its a 1960 model with a inline pump, think at that time thay could be fitted with the rotary aswell :unsure: lest thats what my 2 parts manuals USA + England say? dont know if these pumps are all that bad as I had a old DB here one time that had the tank + glass bowl + filter with lots of water and dirt in it, cleaded all that out and put a extra line from the externel drain back to the tank as it was losing lots of diesel, and this would start every time with no glow plugs :o dont know maybe the engine has to like new for it to start easy? :unsure:

Jake.

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Jake, Sorry, If I wasn't so blind :rolleyes: I would have looked at your info at the bottom of your posts & SEEN the year of your B-275. :D

I found another book I forgot I had, Its an engine service manual for the early B-275( thanks to magic mikey). It lists the compression ratio for the BD-144A as 19.3:1. with compression pressures of 480 -520 psi taken at 1875 rpm. It looks like there were 2 compression ratios for these engines, 19.3:1 & 21.1:1, probably early & late production. Suspect the 144C would be the same.

I've been looking thru 3 parts books I have for the early & late series TD-5s & the 500 series crawlers; TC-201A, TC202A, & TC203A to cross reference the major changes to the 144 & 154. Once I get it sorted out I'll throw it up here.

Doug

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The BD-144 used in the TD-5's & early 500's was given the letter designation C & the engine serial # started at 501. i.e. BD-144/501C. I suspect the "A" designation was for those engines supplied for the wheel tractors?. The BD-154 used in the later 500's was designated BD-154T, but the parts book does not give a starting serial #.

From the parts books there were several change ups along the way.

At serial#BD144/778C there was a piston change:

S#778C & prior used #3040 369 R1 piston

S#779C & up used #704 099 R2 piston

At serial # BD144/1950C there were several significant changes:

The crankcase assembly( block ) was changed along with the front crankcase cover;

The Cylinder head was changed;

The fuel injection pumps were changed;

The fuel injectors were changed;

S#1950C & prior used #3042 475 R92 crankcase assembly

S#1951C & up used #3040 912 R41 crankcase assembly ( this # carried on in the BD-154T)

The differences appear to be a change in main bearing caps & bolts along with an access cast in the block for hourmeter drive.

The change in front crankcase cover appears to be for the new injection pump drive gear.

There is no part # listed for the cylinder head on engines S#1950C & prior. It advises to order the new head supplied for S#1951C & up, casting # 3043 824 R11 with the new exhaust vavles #3043 826 R1 if replacement on the earlier engine is required.. The exhaust valves & seats appear to be the change in the cylinder head. The early heads used exhaust v/v #3040 362 R1 which had a valve head diameter of 1.245" to 1.255". The new exhaust valves had a head diameter of 1.171" to 1.181"

The injector pumps were changed from the CAV model BPE mechanical inline pump to the CAV model DPA rotary pump.

Fuel injectors changed from #705 431 R91 for S#1950C & prior equipped with BPE mechanical pump, to

#3040 870 R91 for use on S#1951C & up with DPA rotary pump. This carried on in the BD-154T

The cylinder head used on the BD-154T was a different pt# than the head for the BD-144C. The difference appears to be the guides are different & the 154 head uses double valve springs & different retainers to the 144's single spring. The intake & exhaust valves are the same #'s as used in the 144 head.

There was a change in part # for the cam shaft between the later TD-5 parts book & the 500 book but no serial # break or info is given. The cam is used in both 144 & 154 engines.

There was also a change in Con rod pt#'s between the books to #3061 214 R91. The new rod uses the same wrist pin bushing & rod bolts as the previous rod #704 088 R91.

The crankshaft part # is the same thru all the engines.

Oh, and the BD154T used a different piston & liner ( of course).

There were a few other small items that changed up & I've probably missed something, but those are the major changes I see in the parts books.

Doug

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TD5...been following this with interest....this is not the first time we have had this type of discussion re "BD" diesels :):)

In NZ, we had 588 of the 444 models...(same engine as 434...upgraded styling )

1111 of the 434 models

1298 of the B414 models

1947 of the B275 models

1649 of the B250 models

and 270 of the 276 models ( now there is a bit of useless imformation for you... :D:D:D )

...the old 250's and 275's were difficult to start for some owners.....but , with the correct rated battery and glow plugs all OK...they would start , even in cold weather...I had a 276 and a 434, from that era of small tractors....you are correct, those later models with that bit a residual engine warmth , they would start just fine, without glowing them...

They all gave very good engine life....and you will realise that our winter temps do not drop as depressingly as yours :):):) ...

I still see 250's still around, on small life style type blocks....although the "city dewellers " seem to have the money, when they buy lifestyle blocks...and therefore a new Kabota or similair is the prefered ...

Mike

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Jake, just curious, what year is your B-275 & which injection pump does it have on it????

Doug

TD-5

its a 1960 model with a inline pump, think at that time thay could be fitted with the rotary aswell :unsure: lest thats what my 2 parts manuals USA + England say? dont know if these pumps are all that bad as I had a old DB here one time that had the tank + glass bowl + filter with lots of water and dirt in it, cleaded all that out and put a extra line from the externel drain back to the tank as it was losing lots of diesel, and this would start every time with no glow plugs :o dont know maybe the engine has to like new for it to start easy? :unsure:

Jake.

Jake ,the DB,s were direct injection were,nt they ,by memory.If this being the case ,they will start easier irrespective of the pump syle.The higher cranking speed,comp.ratio and injector pressure will contribute to easier starting on the 154 model.Starting has always been a pain on any indirect injection engine overthe direct injection types,irrespective of the name on the front.

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Mike, Interesting #'s on the different models that made it down to your neck of the woods, not that many considering the total production numbers.

The local native band near me have a large ranching operation, cattle & hay, they still have two B-275's that are in the field every day during hay season. I wonder how many of the British built tractors were imported here into Canada.

Here's a link to the production #'s for the british built machines, you probably have this, but just incase.

http://users.telenet.be/IH-SBWD6/IHnummersGB.htm

Pukeko, Agree totally on the IDI engines, Have had several 6.9 & 7.3 IDI's & they always put on a good show when firing them up on a cold day, worked on a couple of boats with V-12 & V-16 Caterpillar IDI style engines, no glow plugs... those engines had a lot of character if you could get them fired on a cold start :D

Doug

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Doug, the serial number on my engine is BD144-2122C. The part number from the tag on the pump is 3041317-R91. Mine takes a lot of glow plugging when it is cold to get started but still starts after only a few revolutions of the starter. As long as the temp gauge shows some heat, I don't have to use the plugs to restart it. There are tons of B250, B275 and B414's in this neck of the woods.

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3041 317 R92 is the part number for the DPA rotary pump in the parts book TC-202A

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Another component that can affect how well the engine starts is the starter motor itself. The design ( power output) of the starter motor will dictate the cranking speed of the engine, all other related items being up to snuff. Diesel engines don't like slow cranking speeds ,especially IDI engines. Checked to see whether there were starter upgrades through out the series, but there appears to have been only one.

IH PT# 635 371 R91 (Delco-Remy # 1108 659) used on machines with chassis serial #'s prior to #4031 ( AG ) & # 10448 (industrial)

IH PT# 636 788 R91 (Delco-Remy # 1107 544) used on machines with chassis serial #4031 & #10448 & up. Also used on the 500 series Diesel.

This would have been shortly after the B series introduction & well after the change ups to the engine previously mentioned.

Neither of these starters are currently listed in Delco Remys catalog & I have been told by different people they are obsolete & no longer available??.

On the AG wheel tractor side, it appears all the starters used were mainly Lucas, with a couple of Bosch listings & one Delco Remy used on the 424.

B-275

IH#704 447 R91 ( Lucas # 26132A)

IH#704 447 R92 ( Lucas # 26132E)

IH#704 447 R93 ( Lucas # 26132J)

B-414

IH#704 447 R94 ( Lucas # 26132N)

B-424

IH #383 813 R91 ( Delco Remy # 1107 585)

434

IH#3046 890 R91 ( Lucas #26193B)

354,364,384, & 444

IH# 3046 890 R92 ( Lucas #26288)

or

IH# 3114 177 R91 ( Bosch # 0-001-354-107) Can't confirm this Bosch #.

Unfortunately, do to the differences in mounting location & orientation, the starters will not swap between the AG tractors & the crawlers.

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Doug, here is a comparison of the two starters taken from a Delco Remy Test Specification manual dated 7-1-69.

1108659

Rotation - Clockwise

Spec number - 449

No Load Test - Volts: 11.8, Min Amps: 40, Max Amps: 70, Min Rpm: 6800, Max Rpm: 9200

1107544

Rotation - Counter Clockwise

Spec number - 3534

No Load Test - Volts: 9, Min Amps: 50, Max Amps: 80, Min Rpm: 5500, Max Rpm: 9000

I would say from the rotation, that the postion of the starter was changed!

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Well Tim, now I'm confused ( which isn't hard to do). I thought the starter mounted in the same location on all of them including the 500. Will have to wait to here from some one with a late B series or a 500. Big Don will probably know for sure.

Doug

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I'll toss in an only slightly related note about the starters. Pretty much all the older IH ag tractors I have seen have the starter going back towards the transmission while the crawlers of the same vintage had to have it pointing forward for accessibility. This applies to the M, 6 and 9 engines. Don't know what else. So a "tractor" based unit probably has a precedent. As to the 340 and 500 stuff, YMMV :)

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Doug,

Hate to tell you this, but my BD-144 with bad valve seats and I'm sure other inside deficiencies as well as a hole punched out the side of the block, starts beautifully even at just below freezing that we get out here on the coast. I've even got a poor battery in it that doesn't hold charge for long! Its got the rotary injection pump.

I've got an electric lift pump on the fuel line, so when I turn on the ignition the pump goes on, hit the glow plugs for 3 seconds and kick the starter and she starts on the first revolution most times. Once its got a little bit of heat no glow plugs needed.

Doug, you are a TD-5 expert,....can't believe the amount of detail you can dig up.

Trev

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Trev, Thanks, but I'm no expert, just trying to stir up a little disscussion on these old gems & figure out why the later ones might have started better. It kinda P###ed me off when I went to Dads & fired up the B434 for the first time & relized how well these engines can start. :o

Since your machine is a series B, can you clarify your starter mounting & rotation for future reference.

Doug

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Doug,

My TD-5B has the starter mounted toward the transmission.

Looking at the gear end of the starter I would think it has to turn counter clockwise because the engine turns clock wise, thus if you have one that mounts on the engine side it would have to turn clock wise( I think???)

You sure all your glow plugs are working Doug?? Seems that if they get near white hot like the ones in mine do, they could flash off lube oil if you squirted it in there. Maybe mine don't have the right plugs but they sure get it going.

Trev

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Trev, opps sorry, some how I missed your reply, must be gettin old :huh:

All my glow plugs are working, they are wired in series, so if one burns out the whole circuit is open & none work. They draw between 35 to 40 amps & it takes about a minute for the indicator in the dash to glow bright red. If yours are hot in 3 seconds, they must be different plugs or wired differently.

Mine actually fires on the first or second revolution with the glow plugs hot, its just keepin that fire lit when the engine is cold <_< , it takes 5 to 10 seconds for it to hit evenly on all cyls. I have put an inline heater in the lower rad hose & that makes a big difference. It still doesn't start like the old 434, but I'll live with it.

Here is where the starter mounts on mine

post-143-1170382660_thumb.jpg

Here is where the starter would mount if the engine was in an AG wheel tractor

post-143-1170382763_thumb.jpg

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Just a follow up on the issue of starters for TD-5's & 500's.... I got a hold of a "WILSON ELECTIC LTD" agricultural/industrial catalog. They listed their replacement for Delco #1108659 as # 91-01-3990. Called their distribution center here on the west coast and no problem, 4 in stock. Must buy thru a company that has an account with them, ie Napa, Lordco etc. Checked with Lordco & they already had 3 in their system. So much for being obsolete & no longer available :wacko:

To make a long story short, I bought one, put it in & now the old boy starts like a totally different machine. As long as there is a little heat left in the engine it fires right up without the glow plugs. I'd say it turns over about 25% faster than with the old starter. It starts as well as the 434...almost.The 434 still starts a little better on the first cold start of the day.

Now the bad news.... Its expensive. Retail list was $669.00 CDN, my cost was $395.00 CDN. the core is worth $80.00. I'm sure if I would have shopped around some more I would have beat that price down some, but this was local in town & there the next day.

Doug

Wilson Also lists that # 91-01-3990 as the starter for the 500 with BD-154.

post-143-1183430480_thumb.jpg post-143-1183430529_thumb.jpg post-143-1183430579_thumb.jpg

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First up sorry for dragging such an old thread.

Just wanted to add my experience with starting my B-275. As far as I know it is fitted with the BD-144. When I first looked at the tractor and got it home, it was a bugger to start. 30-40sec of glow and 2-3 tries to start even when warm. After reading that the electrics are +ve earth and switching the battery around,it is totally different tractor. 25sec glow and 1st try every time. After being shut down for 1/2hr started without glow. The starter is much more lively too.

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