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Grabatire

WD6 Timing Gear Marks

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I'm in a bind. I have a WD6 that runs terrible on diesel. It's hard to describe except that it is very erratic. It seems to fire regularily on number one, and only once in a while on the other three but in no particular order. I make that judgement having cracked the lines on all injectors (one at a time) and find that it only has a regular miss when I crack number one. When I crack any one of the other lines there is no decernable change to its running pattern. It belches a lot of blue smoke and pops a lot as though an injector is sticking and trying to fire. I had the injectors overhauled but it didn't help so I thought I should check the timing.

I took the timing cover off and with number one cylinder at TDC, the injection pump timing pointer is pointing inward when it should be pointing outward. This tells me something is 180 degrees out. When the pointer is in the correct position, number four is TDC.

I am going to take the timing cover off to check the marks but the process described in my I&T Manual leaves me to question its accuracy. It instructs to mess the double punch marks on the idler gear with the double punch marks on the injection pump drive gear and the double punch marks on the cam gear. I'm not sure how the same mark can be lined up with two other gears at the same time. Maybe when I get the cover off it will become more apparent.

In the meantime I would dearly appreciate someone providing me with the timing proceedure that is in an IH manual. It wouldn't be the first time that I&T Manuals were found lacking. I am trying to get this engine running before Christmas if at all possible.

Thanks so much.

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I'm in a bind. I have a WD6 that runs terrible on diesel. It's hard to describe except that it is very erratic. It seems to fire regularily on number one, and only once in a while on the other three but in no particular order. I make that judgement having cracked the lines on all injectors (one at a time) and find that it only has a regular miss when I crack number one. When I crack any one of the other lines there is no decernable change to its running pattern. It belches a lot of blue smoke and pops a lot as though an injector is sticking and trying to fire. I had the injectors overhauled but it didn't help so I thought I should check the timing.

I took the timing cover off and with number one cylinder at TDC, the injection pump timing pointer is pointing inward when it should be pointing outward. This tells me something is 180 degrees out. When the pointer is in the correct position, number four is TDC.

I am going to take the timing cover off to check the marks but the process described in my I&T Manual leaves me to question its accuracy. It instructs to mess the double punch marks on the idler gear with the double punch marks on the injection pump drive gear and the double punch marks on the cam gear. I'm not sure how the same mark can be lined up with two other gears at the same time. Maybe when I get the cover off it will become more apparent.

In the meantime I would dearly appreciate someone providing me with the timing proceedure that is in an IH manual. It wouldn't be the first time that I&T Manuals were found lacking. I am trying to get this engine running before Christmas if at all possible.

Thanks so much.

Been there , done that.

I don,t think its timing if the one cyl fires when it should.

The diesels use an idler gear, it takes a lot of turning to make the marks all line up but it does.

could be a broken tooth or some thing else.

Check that the idler bearing is ok.

Ray

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Has it ever run correctly since you had it? When you crack #1 compared to 2-3-4, is the amount of fuel delivered look about the same? It wouldn't run on #1 either if the timing was off far enough to make 2-3-4 run bad. If it is an IH single-plunger pump and it has been sitting for a long time I would bet that the distributor valves on 2-3-4 are bad or gummed up. The injection pump gear pointer pointing the wrong way on #1 TDC is interesting though. In my experience, it is not necessary to worry about where the crankshaft is from a timing standpoint when installing the pump, since the injection pump turns at half crankshaft speed, and it is not possible to get it wrong as long as the lines on the pump hub and the drive gear line up. That assumes that the rest of the timing gear train is lined up correctly, however. The biggest concern when changing one of those pumps as far as crankshaft position goes is getting the holes in the pump gear to line up with the pump mounting bolts so you can get to them. Brian

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I got this tractor at a farm sale so I don't know anything about it's history, but it hasn't run properly since I got it.

Here is a bit of what I have done to check the timing a bit further. I put it on gas start mode and took the spark plugs out and disconnected the injection pump control rod so I could have the inj pump in operating (full throttle) mode. With the injection lines removed from the pump I turned the engine over with the crank, to see if I could tell if fuel was being delivered to the correct injector port in relation to the firing order. What I found was; when number one cyldr was on TDC compression, fuel was being delivered to the number four port. Conversely, when number four cydr is TDC compression, fuel is being delivered to number one inj. port.

Now I haven't had the opportunity to do that check with an engine that is running properly so I'm not sure if it means what I take it to mean, i.e. the inj. pump is 180 degrees out.

I have a TD9 that runs good so I am going to try it with that engine and see what I find.

The WD6 has an American Bosch pump whereas the TD9 has an IHC pump so each one may have different operation charictoristics under those circimstances. But Im going to try it any way.

If it supports my assumption the pump is out 180, then rather take the front of the engine apart, to check the timing gears, I'm going to drill and tap three new holes in the pump drive hub so I can turn it 180. The worst that will happen is I'll have three extra holes.

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If it's a Bosch pump it will have individual plungers, but three of them could easily be inoperative.

I think I would take the time and effort that it would take to drill the gear and make it non-standard and pull the timing cover instead. Does it look like the timing cover was off (loose bolts, etc.)? If the gear mesh is off enough to make the pointer for the pump be that far off, the chances are good that none of the rest of it is right either. The timing marks are pretty foolproof. The crankshaft gear and the idler have one punch mark on their mating teeth. The idler and the gears that mesh to it have two punch marks on their mating teeth. With the crankshaft and idler lined up, the rest of the gears that mate with the idler can be checked. You should only have to pull the idler gear, line up the rest, and slide the idler back into place if it is not correct.

I hate seeing things get cobbled up and making them non-standard :(.

The real IH service manuals I have seen are far superior to the I&T books, not to mention more detailed about specific models, at least the few I have had the chance to compare.

Good luck, let us know what you find

Brian

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I think on the IH pump you can remove the three timing bolts from the gear and rotate the pump shaft to the desired posistion and re-install bolts. I seem to remember that the timing cover won't allow the gear to un-mesh and be rotated by hand.

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I have never been around the gas start diesel tractor, apart from seeing a few at shows.

But have been reading this post.

I have a genuine Blue Ribbon manual , so I have been having a look.

I see in the manual there is a pointer and scale mark on the pump gear to fine tune the timing.

As you say get no. 1 on tdc, the front pulley make also should line up, set the pointer on the mid mark on the scale.

But what I did also see is the layout of the fuel filters and pipework, it shows a filter screen in one of the fittings on the primary pump.

I have been around plenty of diesel tractors and sometimes dirt sits in all places after years. Even after the filter, there is also another filter screen were the fuel from the second filter goes in to the top of the pump.

Can't really give you any more , as I'am only going from what I have seen in the manual, I'am sure some of the guys on here will know more about the filter screen.

You do need a good head of pressure going into the injection pump to fill up the plunger chambers.

Just an idea,

Alex.

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I think on the IH pump you can remove the three timing bolts from the gear and rotate the pump shaft to the desired posistion and re-install bolts. I seem to remember that the timing cover won't allow the gear to un-mesh and be rotated by hand.

Some FYI, just because... According to the book, only the 14 pump gear can be removed or even rotated without removing the entire cover. The others keep the gear in place.

Sounds like somebody got the wrong TDC at an earlier point in life. <_<

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OK guys I'll bring you up to speed and answer the questions or respond to the suggestions that I haven't so far.

-All the teeth are OK on the idler and the pump drive gear. I won't be able to see the others until I pull the timing cover off, but there isn't any unusual noise coming from the timing gears so I don't expect to find missing teeth.

-All the plungers seem to push the same amount of fuel when I turned the pump without the lines attached, indicating they are all working. It's just that number one plunger on the pump pushes fuel as number four cyldr is on its way up and so on throughout the firing order to where number four port is pushing fuel as number one cyldr is on its way up. Back to the indication that things are out of whack 180 degrees.

-I have an IHC service manual coming for the TD6 & TD9 but it hasn't got here yet. Trouble is, I don't imagine it will have any Bosch information.

-The pump drive gear is indeed trapped by the timing cover and can not be moved out of mess with the idler. As much as it is a pain in the @ right now, I do give the engineers credit for making it so.

-With the pump drive gear having three bolts instead of four, it can only be turned 1/3rd of a turn at a time. I need to try 1/2 turn.

-When number one cyldr is TDC, the timing pointer on the front pulley is in correct position. I also checked the cam timing using the firing order running mate principle, and I believe it is OK too. The valves rock on number four when Number one is TDC.

-With this pump being a Bosch it doesn't have a fuel pressure guage like the IH pump and a lack of fuel pressure due to dirty filters could indeed be part of the problem. I have new filters on order.

I have an IHC Type A pump from an MD that I may install in place of the Bosch if push comes to shove.

I got a PM from a board member suggesting I check the commpression. I had thought of that too but this engine doesn't have a starter and I'm not sure if I'm ticked off enough yet to spin it fast enough with the crank. Does anyone know what the commpression should be on the gas side?

Thanks for all the interest so far everyone, I'll try to keep you up to date. Maybe someday, if I live long enough, I'll actually help someone on this board instead of asking all the questions.

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Dave: You probably checked this ,but would any of the injector lines be instaled on wrong cyl? I sent you 3 "playing in the mud pictures" .I hope they are not too big.ps.Do you think that truck is a C99?I can't be sure from the pictures but if it is a 6 cyl it may not be.

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My book for a wd-9 says both pumps[bosch and IH ] time the same way.With #1 on tdc,line up groove on pump hub and groove on face of pump gear.put pointer on hub,pointing at 0.Bolt hub, gear,and pointer together in this postion.Turn pump shaft to align grooves.

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I though of that kal, the problem is the pump drive hub is held to the drive gear with three bolts instead of four, so I can only move it either 120, 240 or 360 degrees. I needed 180. However, having lots of time to kill I did try the 120 and 240 moves but it wouldn't entertain the idea of running at all.

magic mickey sent me the correct timing gear information so I dug into the engine today and got the timing corrected. All the gears were correct except the pump drive gear. It was out 180.

The good news is; after striaightening things out it runs smooth as can be with great throttle response and has clear exhaust after warm up.

The bad news is; it seems to be firing a bit heavy on number one and has what sounds like a bit of diesel knock. I had the injectors done earlier so now I will get the pump checked out. The local diesel tech. said the Bosch inline pumps can get a bit over zealous on one or two cyldrs. over time and may need a little TLC. I sure hope thats what it is. It doesn't sound like a rod knock but it could be a wrist pin or broken piston with it having run so long out of time as bad as it was. Anyway, it's nice to have solved the rough running problem.

It will probably be after the first of the year before I can get the pump checked out, but you all will know when I do.

Thanks again to all who offered advice. It's nice to know you're out there.

Merry Christmas and all the best in '07.

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First off "Grabatire" a diesel engine will run very well regardless of the timing, it just won't very much power. You see when desiel is injected into the cylinder it will still get compressed and fire. Now for the timing marks. There four gears that are punch marked. Crankshaft, camshaft, idler and injection pump. The crankshaft drives the idler which has one punch mark. The idler drives the cam shaft with two punch marks and also drives the injection pump with 3 punch marks. Its pretty simple to alien these marks one to one, two to two and three to three. If the cam shaft marks are off it will not run at all because your valve timing will be way out. If the injection pump is off it will still run good but will not have much power. Been there done that.

RR

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Not hearing how bad the knock is it's tough to judge but if it hasn't been run or ran properly for sometime you might want to consider adding some ATF or 2 stroke oil to the fuel tank and run it for awhile, this should help lubricate and clean up the Bosch and they seem to usually just run better with use, barring no major problems currently exsist.

Merry Christmas to you and yours GT :) Lance

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It has been interesting reading about this fight to success. One never knows how bad a screwing one will get at an auction sale. Just hope you bought it right. Don't sound like you got a lot of money into parts but the time element is huge. Hope you have some hair left.

Enjoy the old smoker and glad it runs.

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Well gang here's the latest.

As I mentioned in my last post I was going to take the injection pump in for a checkup early in the new year and I'd let you know the outcome.

Well I got lucky ....sort of. The diesel shop was able to get at it last Friday. It looks like someone had tried to overhaul it with a pipe wrench and tire iron, because things had been done inside that pump that only an imagination could come up with. The tech phoned me and said he could straighten most of the screwups but the main problem is; plungers two, three and four are just plain worn out. When they come into phase on initial delivery there is so much leakback that he wondered why it even started. He said if it was a direct electric start it probably wouldn't have, but with it running up to speed on gas the pump had enough speed to develope a sufficient fuel charge and get it running.

He said the reason it sounded like it was dieseling on number one was because number one was the only plunger delivering anywhere close to correct volume and it had been tinkered to bring it into delivery earlier than it should. The other three cylinders were just along for the ride.

Without parts being readily available, if at all, I had him do what he could adjustment-wise and said I'd try it.

I installed it today and by cracky it run real nice until I tried to work it a bit. It pulled pretty good but with the plungers being worn as they are, I'm sure there was more fuel pouring out the pump cam housing overflow line than was returning to the tank.

hardtail suggests a bit of two-cycle oil or ATF is a good pump lubricant. Well I was tempted to try some bunker crude to see if it would cut down the blow-by.

Anyway, it looks like I'm going to install an IHC pump. I have one, but it had been sitting around uncared for, for quite some time before I got it, and needs a good cleaning. It also need different injection lines because the fittings on the Bosch are larger that the IH. The lines are long enough that the diesel shop said they could change the fittings for the pump end if need be. I took the IH pump in but the shop doesn't have the tool to take the distributor body apart so they can clean the discharge valves, which means I will need to take it elsewhere. Probably to a shop in Edmonton.

So there you have it. Things are proceeding, even if it is steady by jerks.

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Dave ;I don't have any bosch pumps but could part with an A series ih pump for a WD9 from out in the dead row .I'm not sure if the lines would work for you or not.A super 9 pump might spook the old girl up a might

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The WD6 has an American Bosch pump whereas the TD9 has an IHC pump so each one may have different operation charictoristics under those circimstances.

My WD6 has the Bosch pump. The "real" owners laid it up because they couldn't get it to carry load on one cylinder - it would idle just fine, but it would start to miss when you put a load on it. The injector was the problem, and they couldn't get one anywhere for it. They even had that injector taken to a diesel mech and cleaned with crocus cloth and it didn't help, at which point they were looking at having a new one machined, which would've cost them a whole lot more than the tractor was worth if they could find somebody to do the work at all.

You may need a complete new injector setup for it - I saw one go on eBay for ~$500.

What serial number is yours, by the way? Mine is WDBK1961, which was apparently the 1941 model year, The Bosch pumps fell out of favour on those, I think it had something to do with events in Germany at the time. :ph34r:

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Another installment in the WD6 saga.

I finally got the IH injection pump installed and fired it up today. It runs real nice but the timing must be a bit off because it seems a bit sluggish. First I have to find out what I did or didn't do when I installed the new transfer pump seal. Within a minute of starting, the pump was so full of fuel that it was foaming out the clean air supply port (I didn't have the line attached to the manifold intake pipe). Not as bad at low idle compared to high idle.

The Bosch had a similar problem but no where near as bad. The diesel shop said the plunger to barrel clearances were a bit loose in it so I couldn't blame it on anything other than plunger leakback. Hence the switch to the IH pump.

My first thought is the gasket between the transfer pump and the main pump might not be holding because it has no fuel pressure either. I confirmed it with a master guage that I know works. I made a new gasket when I installed the seal but may not have been carefull enough, or I may have used the wrong material and it blew out. I don't see any fuel coming from where the transfer pump goes into the main pump though. Maybe I'll run it with the top housing cover off and see if it offers any answers.

As always I'm open to suggestions folks.

However on a positive note, it's still only January 3rd. I have a while to get it running before I need it in June.

Oh by the way ZXJohn; the serial number is WDBK36032 which I think makes it a 1950 model.

john r; Your darn toot'n a Super 9 pump would spook it up. They turn out 10 cc's more fuel than the WD6 pump. Can you imagine that under full power in the Big Top. They wouldn't get the smoke cleared out for the rest of the show.

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You may get lots of smoke but it will never make the noise[racket] that Barry gets out of that Oliver. [Or I hope it don't]

How would Logan get those 3 660's in the door?

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If the pump fills, it may be the scavenger valve is stuck closed or the scavenger side of the primary pump is kaput.

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Hay Dave& Logan: I hear we can show the "other colors" some red paint next summer. IH chapter 38 show may be at Lacombe the end of June,IH <_<<_<<_< truck show at Rimbey mid July and maybe IH featured at the Leduc show. [wonder how many white one I could muster]

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