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ianb1268

D 350 Rebuild Update

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I just got back the head yesterday from the machine shop. I elected to put in new valve guides and valves myself, to save on some labour costs.

The machinest doing the work was elderly, told me he started working in a machine shop in about 1958. He worked pretty much exclusively IHC diesels until about mid 1970's. He did a lot until the mid 1980's, and still has a few coming through.

I had cleaned the head before bringing it into him, he inspected it, no cracks were apparent, but after the magna fluxing, there was a crack running from one of the precups. I had talked on the phone with him about finding another one, but he advised me that it is very rare to find one that was not cracked. And that they repaired quite easily. After all his years of work, I didn't doubt his knowledge, and the repair was made.

We talked about the cracking issues, he had remembered all the different excuses that were brought up. But the fact was, that by the time an IH diesel came in, it was so brutally over-houred, part of the rebuild quote was to repair the cracked head, that was the nature of the beast. He had worked on a ton of jet heads, but the cracking around the precup area was never solved.

Sharing his knowledge was greatly appreciated, he does excellent work. I have my head back, repaired, machined, magna fluxed, pressure tested, ready to go. I didn't see the cracked head, truth is, that the naked eye seldom ever does, that is why this type of work gets sent out to the people with the proper equipment. :)

One stellite seat had to be installed.

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Woohoo! Great news, and thanks for the info. :)

Any idea on what was done to make the repair?

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Woohoo! Great news, and thanks for the info. :)

Any idea on what was done to make the repair?

It is hard to see with my photo shot. The cracked area was ground out and rewelded. The seat was reground, remagna fluxed and repressure tested. They must have used good quality cast iron, the area is barely recognizable.

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I'm presuming a bit, but based on the screw stick pointer, the first is a crack shot and the second a new seat picture?

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I'm presuming a bit, but based on the screw stick pointer, the first is a crack shot and the second a new seat picture?

You got her figured out.

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what are the three holes below the injector ports for? My early TD9, i bealive d330, doesn't have them, I think

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what are the three holes below the injector ports for? My early TD9, i bealive d330, doesn't have them, I think

Are you talking about the two for the coolant passages?

what are the three holes below the injector ports for? My early TD9, i bealive d330, doesn't have them, I think

Are you talking about the ones for the coolant passages with the outline around them from the head gasket?

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That does look like a nice repair, have to give us local guys his name JIC. Would be worth the drive for that kind of work and experience, not so happy to hear about multiple jethead failures though.

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what are the three holes below the injector ports for? My early TD9, i bealive d330, doesn't have them, I think

I think your talking about the rectangular ports on the side of the head.

Therein lies the mystery of the IH heads. From what I've been able to figure out, these are not the infamous jet heads, but an updated style from what your d335 has on it. All the d350's I've seen have this style. I believe there was a water manifold that bolted on there to make it similar to a jet head. Never seen one though. That is what I've come up with researching and drawing my own conclusions :lol::lol:

Hey Ian-

Are you rebuilding the entire engine? Have you gotten all your parts? If so where??

I've been buying parts here and there for my TD9-91 to completely overhaul it over the last year, and just got the last and most expensive....piston/liner set.

If you need any help locating stuff, let me know.

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If you are looking for an excellent machine shop in Edmonton, go to Weld and Grind LTD. He is located on 174th street, just north of Stoney Plains Road. The shop foreman there could probably write a library of books when it comes to engine machining. Even after all the years of working, he still gets excited about building engines.

Interesting that a water manifold bolted to the side of the 350 heads. Does anyone have a picture of one? I would assume it was an attempt to get extra circulation around those precup ports.

The mains for the 350 are still available through the machine shop, and cam bearings, I am going to order them after the crank is cut. Piston and sleeves are being made. I believe they are coming out of Nevada somewhere. The cost was comparable to what was being sold off of some old shelf. At least these will be new. Gasket set is coming from Jobbers Warehouse in Philadelphia. They provided me with excellent service throughout the years for both IHC and other makes and models. My injection work will be going to Central Fuel Injection, I think they are located in Iowa, I am not sure. They use all new internal parts when rebuilding, even comes with a warranty. I am very pleased with the injection pump on my WD9, it has been on there since 2000, runs well even at -30 below. It is definetly an expensive rebuild, but the amount of trouble free service, and good fuel economy, I don't think I will ever wear it out. It takes a while for everything to come in, I will try to update when things come in.

Where have you been getting your parts Overland?

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Yup heard of them, my buddy rebuilt an engine for a Case 1070 last summer and they had a ground crank hanging on the rack for $400 for the bad one returned. Owner was pretty pleased with that price as the other ag wreckers were much higher for a wash. He was talking to a older employee there about his Dad telling him about a machine/tool that they used to have for mobile journal turning, field work. Fella said he remembers it and knew what he was referring to but alas those days are gone.

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I got new all new valves/springs, rod/main/cam bearings, and a gasket set from Cooper Tractor in Portland, OR. I bought a NOS piston and liner set from NOSIH here on the board. Have most of my machining work done, and we are working on rebuilding the oil pump right now. I will have a local injection shop rebuild the pump and injectors next.

Fortunatally, there is a few machine shops and diesel shops around town that have guys working for them that worked on these IH diesels when they were new, so I have been tracking them down and having them do what I can't do myself.

Mine started out as having a cracked block and needing one new liner. I got a used block and a liner from Kroenig Tractor in Amity, OR. Then I found I needed new valves (pitting) and bought those, The more I spent on parts, I decided to just go all the way and do it right. Whats another 2000.00 right :lol: :lol:

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Hardtail,I will have to dig out the guys name we are probably talking about the same person. He is sharp as a tack, probably one of the most knowledgeable people I have ever talked with.

Thanks for the link Overland, I will check them out, I haven't purchased my valve gear hardware as of yet.

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MM-

That's HT's ud 14 right??

I have never seen a D350 with the water manifold, and am only assuming that is what bolted to the three rectangular ports. I have taken my covers off and looked in there and it looked like there was some jets to direct water flow, but I could be mistaken.

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Here we go again he he he Yes thats the jethead UD14 that MM posted but you'll notice that the water manifold mounts on the carburator side of the engine, those blank plates that OL47 is referring to are on the injector side of the head. He has said he removed them and could see jets on the coolant side. With lots of CC's help the only thing I could come up with was IH DID try different casting designs to address the cracking problems and with ians enlightenment never got it solved as he just stated how many cracked jetheads they've repaired. I know of 4 different types of head castings and since some survived crackfree, I wonder if it was their casting practices at the time or the IP timing as MB Cat had eluded to long ago. I by no means am trying to come off as an expert but there have been so many different theories on why the cracking some make more sense than others, I think M Diesel was keeping track of tracing down the cracks of which I'll go crawl back in mine. :D

My theory is relatively poor casting practices compared to today and too many openings and shapes located within that combustion chamber on the coolant side, of course good maintenance and operating practices greatly increased your chance of a survivor.

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The D350's have the intake and exhaust on the same side.....the only place there would be room for a water manifold is on the i/p side. That is where I drew my conclusion from.

I agree with HT's theory, with the main factors being improper tuning, and cooldown.

I have absolutley nothing to base this on other than what I know and what I see. Other than that it is just a bunch of wild ASSumptions on my part.

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Yep, the eternal head questions. :lol:

Given that some just run forever, the more ya look, the more it seems poor casting has to be the main culprit. The MD fires easily and would run every day if asked to. Don't know if the head has been repaired, but it is 55 years old and going strong (on a recent rebuild). It has worked its whole life too.

Given the starting valve plumbing, it was just asking too much for the manufacturing of the day. I think it makes the head a bit too hollow and some castings can't take it over the long term while others got the magic pour and lived happy lives.

I am thrilled to hear of repairs being done on a routine basis. To hear some talk, it was like those skills never existed. Too much throwitawayitis in the world today. The only other thing to say is that eventually, all heads will crack. Heat and cool them enough, things go wrong.

I still think it is important to note that almost all the pics we see have the crack going across the valve seat.

Ian: Ya need to post names and addresses please. These tidbits are getting to be crucial for these old beasts. I'd really like to know how the weld was done too.

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I would have to agree with the poor casting practices. As you said MDiesel, all heads will eventually crack. These heads got pretty complicated towards the end. Probably a lot of the cracks would fill in with carbon and could withstand the test of time quite nicely. Until of course, a person pulls it off. The good news is that they welded and repaired quite nicely, once they are in place again and torqued down straight, they will withstand another lifetime. I have even heard of the theory that leaking injectors were the cause, not sure I buy that one. :unsure:

If anyone is interested in a phone number and name, I will post it, the guy is awesome to talk with.

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HT

Other side you say. :o This might not be "true" jet head. :D:D

mike

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MM the UD14 looks like it has coolant outlets where my 335 has the exhaust ports connected. If you look at Ian's pictures they show the rectangular holes, each with four holes, below the injector holes. Those are what I was woundering about. I don't see them on your "true" jet head, don't get me wrong, I am no expert on these things just trying to learn from the teachers and hopefully pass on the knowledge, some day, if I ever have enough to do that :D:D:D You know what they say, ignorance is bliss.

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The 4 types that I know of and I believe in order of production

1 Earliest were intake and exhaust on opposite sides with exhaust on injector side

2 Intake and exhaust both on carb side

3 Intake and exhaust both on carb side with blank off plates on opposite side

4 Jethead with intake and exhaust on opposite sides, intake with water manifold on carb side

So basically the intake never changes just the exhaust ports and different castings. These are the 4 differences I've learned about (Thx to the CC school of jug er jetheads :D ) I would be very interested to learn of any more. Also of interest would be if any machining marks are evident under those blank plates and as to why they exist, was there something different on that design that casting alone couldn't accomplish?

Of note here also is that many believe that IH knew about the problem and never addressed it they just manufactured 3x as many heads as engines. :lol::blink: It appears that they did try to fix it on numerous occasions but the gas diesel was just to difficult a design for the production practices of that era.

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The 4 types that I know of and I believe in order of production

1 Earliest were intake and exhaust on opposite sides with exhaust on injector side

2 Intake and exhaust both on carb side

3 Intake and exhaust both on carb side with blank off plates on opposite side

4 Jethead with intake and exhaust on opposite sides, intake with water manifold on carb side

Is that consistant between the 9's, 14's, and 18's??

All the 9's (D335 and D350) I've seen have the intake and exhaust on the same side (distributor), just some without block off plates, and some (later) with. Also, all the heads I've seen with block off plates have an extra tapped hole next to where the temp. sensor goes (for the expansion tank).

On the other hand, all the 14's I've seen have the intake and exhaust on opposite sides. I have only seen water manifolds on 14's and I seem to recall seeing one on an 18, but can't recall how the intake and exhaust were laid out on the 18.

Not trying to bicker here....I just have never seen a 9 with a true water manifold, but can only assume that is what those plates are for...I don't see it having anything to do with the casting process.

Maybe Ian can take a picture of what lies behind those mysterious plates.

:D

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Lance, I need to look over my shoulder to find the "expert" :D I may be able to find some info what actually went on,will take awhile. As jet heads became a used item some were installed onto machines without the whole package. I guess they could be called "pseudo" jet heads. The extra coolant tank on the hood was part of the upgrade.

I suspect the newer heads never solved the problem either. Some heads show surface cracks first, much like overheated flywheels, which grow with thermal cycling. The castings are very thick which slow the heat transfer rate considerably. If you work-and then idle- the machine the temp. guage goes up for 5 min. That is a lot of stored heat.

A diesel head from the same era which didn`t have cracking problems is substantially less metal. I think this is just one of several faults that plagued these old girls.

Are we off topic yet?? :o:lol::lol:

mike

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OL47 we all get very interested in our particular models but there were many similarities between models and basic design. I would have to look at the starting year of all models to determine how many different style heads each model had. The earliest were the TD 35/40 and it would be of interest to me if they suffered from the cracking, don't hear much about them but there aren't many left. The TD18 and other models started in 1939 and had a full run 20 year run until 58 and actually the 691 saw service in TD20 200/201 series into the early sixties. One would have to check on 91 series owners as to whether the water manifold was used and was an option on the 9's? My question is was there some kind of machining that took place behind those plates that if cast solid would have been impossible to do. There is no room to run the exhaust on intake side due to the water manifold on the jetheads, already jammed up on that side. If I were initially designing that head I would have laid it out as there first design and almost all other engines follow this with intake and exhaust ports going in opposite directions for simplicity. I think when they encountered the cracking problems they ran the ports together maybe hoping the intake charge would help cool the exhaust and it probably freed up some space by the precup that more coolant could occupy. After this didn't work so great they started looking at improved circulation.

I still think the problem is relatively unpressurized castings and due to all the valves and precups, ports etc the material thickness and density is constantly changing and like MD said if they didn't recieve the magic pour the hot spots and uneven cooling eventually did them in. Again just me theories. You know what BS I'm full of. :lol:

MM I think your right on the thickness part and uneven thickness was probably worse, as well as your not partial to one model unless it's Mama. Be interesting to see what you find, can see where the cool down process was so important, guys did it after turbo failures cooked the bearings but this was pre turbo days for IH anyway. Hey it's Friday and the beers cold at the bar :lol: lets go cool her down double on Monday. :wacko:

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