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bitty

Fuel problems

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We never had as much trouble as we had this week with fuel.  Today we ended up getting some kerosene to cut the diesel  . Today we found out that we are mandated in this state that our off road diesel has biodiesel in it . Now that the biodiesel is in it we're having all kinds of gelling problems. As a matter of fact our one portable tank we tried to pump some diesel out of it. It  wouldn't come out the hose. We put a brand new filter on it'll pump to the filter but not through the filter with a brand new filter. So now we eliminated the filter on the pump. 

We have been adding an additive package that provides lubrication and helps with moisture issues. Been using this additive since ultra low sulphur was forced on us . It's worked every year before this winter.

Grrrrrrrrrrrrr

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Been tough here, W. Mass., the last ten days.  found out the fuel co. delivered uncut fuel in November. We don't use much fuel in the winter, just for feeding and barn cleaning. What a mess. Once that wax separates, it never liquefies again. 

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Don't you just love it when the state makes things better?  They switched us over to Oxygenated fuel in the 90's here, not good.  Then the fuel dye was added so for non-tax fuel and they found out it had issues in the cold.  The red dyed fuel we had was the worst for gelling up and not pumping, it always plugged the filters.   In the end there is nothing better than adding heat (as in BTU's not the miracle in a bottle).  Years ago we put Zerostart diesel warmers on some of the equipment to at least warm the fuel returned to the tank, and I have heard of them putting an electric pump on a loop with a Zerostart heater to warm up the tank, all the over the road and big rigs run a coil off the engine thru the tank and that works great.

 

How big is your tank that is a diesel-cicle?

 

best of luck

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We have two 500 gal hwy diesel tanks. Both gelled last weekend, first time ever we have had anything gell. Luckily only about 125 gal in each so was able to remove the filter from one & pump fuel in it into the other tank.  Talked to the fuel supplier & he says it's because of the low sulfer diesel. Refilled the empty tank with a winter blend & additives. One nice thing about the cold, wasn't any lines at the processor. Tues when it was -15 they took in 15 loads, normally 100 plus, 5 of which were our truck. Today they were up to 33.

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2 hours ago, Dave Shepard said:

Been tough here, W. Mass., the last ten days.  found out the fuel co. delivered uncut fuel in November. We don't use much fuel in the winter, just for feeding and barn cleaning. What a mess. Once that wax separates, it never liquefies again. 

Yup the same here in N central mass every one around here the last week has been battling fuel problems this was the filter on the cat loader I run for the company I work for it’s on for the state loading salt 

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We have two 1,000 tanks and a 275 on a old manaur spreader frame for nursing equipment at the pit. We were lucky that the one big tank was 1/4 full and the empty one we got 500 gallons of kerosene in today. We cut everything 20% and emptied the portable tank into the tank one. Then we filled up the portable tank with kerosene leaving around 170 gallons in tank two which we will have topped off with diesel tomorrow. I need to look into getting a really big fuel oil heater for the shop and maybe I can just buy 30K gallons of heating oil every year (as I believe that is not bio diesel blend) rather than buying off road fuel 

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Been having trouble here as well, even with fuel that is supposedly blended. Glad to hear it is not just us, couldn't figure out why we were having so many issues this year.

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17 minutes ago, hillskinefarms said:

Been having trouble here as well, even with fuel that is supposedly blended. Glad to hear it is not just us, couldn't figure out why we were having so many issues this year.

It was indicated that in NY you can get straight diesel. In PA we supposedly can only get bio and diesel blend. The fuel driver was complaining about the issues also

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Sorry Bitty, when I said "blended" I meant diesel / kerosene blend. What they call winter fuel here. Guess I used the wrong terminology. Anyhow, we seem to be having more trouble than usual.

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My fuel driver takes good care of his customers by making sure the fuel is blended for the worst conditions (that driver is my oldest son).  He says the fuel gets worse every year so his company gives the drivers the power to make sure it is blended for the worst conditions.  Plus, I use Power Service in the grey bottle year around.  After the experience I had with Bio a few years back, I won't use it.  

jerry

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We have had some trouble as well.  Running 70/30 blend plus fuel company additive plus some power Service in areas I think we will have trouble. It was 0 at five o’clock and things weren’t too bad.  One skidloader running bad.  They say putting kerosene in makes it wax in the filters worse but I am too afraid to quit doing it and I guess I can’t say I am seeing that problem.  Tomorrow morning supposed to be 8 below with a high of zero.  That might create some challenges.  For us that is really cold.

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I had same problem with Bio-D few years back, everything jelled. Got some Power Services Arctic Express Bio-D Anti-gel. Was expensive but got us thru till fuel was used up. Fuel man I have now winter blends starting first of Nov. Also use Howes fuel treat/anti jell when it gets this cold. Cheap insurance.Power Svc also good product. Had -12 few days back diesel pickup skid loader and 966 ran with no problems.  

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Thanks for posting, I think I can still get red die ,off road in Ohio for off road use. I think ? I will have to drive by the pumps and See , hard to find I know Chadron Oil has it , will check now! See if it's blended ? 

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SON had his Cummins powered pickup jell up Tuesday morning.  He finally got some heat into the tank of fuel he'd bought the night before and made it to Farm & Fleet.  They were Totally out of Power Service, red, gray, white, all gone.   Went to the Loves truck stop next to F&F,  they said they don't handle fuel additives.  Then he goes to Flying J across the street. Two SKIDS of PS 9-1-1, one by each door,  he grabs one bottle and a gallon of white for future use.

I'm sure it's the bio-diesel they blend into the fuel causing it to jell up.  Just another reason my next pickup will be gas powered.

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Is number one diesel not available out there? Why cut with kerosene vs no1?

When it's looking cold I top off with number one and run tractor on number one thanksgiving to mid febuary saves headaches....

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12 hours ago, bitty said:

 I need to look into getting a really big fuel oil heater for the shop and maybe I can just buy 30K gallons of heating oil every year (as I believe that is not bio diesel blend) rather than buying off road fuel 

Took you till now to figure that out?   There is a reason I have my big tank at my house with a copper line that goes inside to no where................I have zero issues since I did that years ago.  IMO they should outlaw the bio and ethanol, it has no place in diesel or gas.

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1 hour ago, mader656 said:

Is number one diesel not available out there? Why cut with kerosene vs no1?

When it's looking cold I top off with number one and run tractor on number one thanksgiving to mid febuary saves headaches....

That's what I was wondering,  we switch to #1 in September and stay there most times, really seems to help.   the fuel economy does drop just a bit, but they don't freeze up

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13 hours ago, bitty said:

We have two 1,000 tanks and a 275 on a old manaur spreader frame for nursing equipment at the pit. We were lucky that the one big tank was 1/4 full and the empty one we got 500 gallons of kerosene in today. We cut everything 20% and emptied the portable tank into the tank one. Then we filled up the portable tank with kerosene leaving around 170 gallons in tank two which we will have topped off with diesel tomorrow. I need to look into getting a really big fuel oil heater for the shop and maybe I can just buy 30K gallons of heating oil every year (as I believe that is not bio diesel blend) rather than buying off road fuel 

they sell #1 and #2 heating oil here,  you might cut one tank or blend one tank with #1 to make a better winter fuel?   

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Few years ago I contacted some fuel retailers after some discussion with someone about fuel blending.

here is what Pilot/flying J does or did winter 2014-15.

Travel Center/Plaza Locations with no biodiesel -B5 bio diesel: Pilot Flying J will begin blending a single treatment of cold flow improvers when the outside temperature reaches +15F to +5F. Should the outside temperature reach +5F to -5F; we will begin double treatments of cold flow improvers. Once the outside temperature dips below -5F; the fuel will be treated with double treatments of cold flow improver and 20% of No 1 fuel. Should No 1 fuel not be available in the market area, triple treatment of cold flow improver will be used. All stores except the cold weather stores listed below will fall into this category as needed. Cold weather stores will begin treatment when the outside temperature reaches +15F and will remain in place until March 1, 2015, regardless of the outside air temperature.

Travel Center/Plaza Locations above B5 bio diesel (includes all Illinois locations): Pilot Flying J will begin blending a double treatment of cold flow improvers for all stores through the winter season, ending March 1, 2015 regardless of outside air temperature. Should the outside temperature reach +10F to +5F; double treatment will also include 20% blending of No 1 fuel. Bio blending will cease for locations above B5 at +10F if No 1 fuel is not available. Once the temperature reaches +5F or below all biodiesel blending in these locations will cease, even if No 1 fuel is available. Pilot Flying J will be using ET Products, Afton Chemical and Innospec as our cold flow improver products for the 2014-2015 winter seasons. 

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WHEN I WAS LOGGING I HAD 3-5 SKIDDERS RUNNINPLUS A MACK LOG TRUCK. WE HAD TWO PICK-UP SUPPLY TANKS. EACH 110 GALLONS. ALWAYS BOUGHT BLENDED FUEL. ALWAYS MADE SURE THE MACHINES WERE FIILLED EVERYNIGHT AFTER WORK SO NO MOISTURE COULD BUILD UP. ALWAYS TREATED THE SUPPLY TANKS WITH POWER SERVICE EVEN IF NOW TROUBLES. THIS WAS YEARS AGO. NEVER HAD TO WORK WITH THIS BIO-CRAP. ONLY ONE OR TWO  TIMES WAS HAD TROUBLES. PULLED THE PLUG RAN THE CRAP OUT OF THE TANKS AND STARTED OVER FRESH.I BOUGHT POWER SERVICE BY THE CASE. USED COUPLES OFF THE PICKS TO WARM UP THE SHIDDER ENGINE TO START THEM. IF IT WAS VERY VERY COLD WE WOULD START AT NOON OR DIDNT WORK AT ALL THAT DAY. ONCE IT GOT SO COLD WE DIDNT WORK MORE THAN 2-3 DAYS IN TWO WEEKS.TRY MAKING A 5K BANK PAYMENT THAT WAY..

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4 hours ago, DOCTOR EVIL said:

SON had his Cummins powered pickup jell up Tuesday morning.  He finally got some heat into the tank of fuel he'd bought the night before and made it to Farm & Fleet.  They were Totally out of Power Service, red, gray, white, all gone.   Went to the Loves truck stop next to F&F,  they said they don't handle fuel additives.  Then he goes to Flying J across the street. Two SKIDS of PS 9-1-1, one by each door,  he grabs one bottle and a gallon of white for future use.

I'm sure it's the bio-diesel they blend into the fuel causing it to jell up.  Just another reason my next pickup will be gas powered.

I am happy to have a dually with the 8.1 and Allison transmission even more so today

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It has been real fun these first few days back to work. We have a yard full of equipment to get in the shop. Many of these machines were last filled with #2 off road before the contractors/owners shut down for the winter. Some are rentals that were shipped up from warm weather states.

Nothing like trying to hook up an alternative fuel source to one of these modern teir 4 engines and get them primed up when out in -15f.

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5 hours ago, mader656 said:

Is number one diesel not available out there? Why cut with kerosene vs no1?

When it's looking cold I top off with number one and run tractor on number one thanksgiving to mid febuary saves headaches....

that what I wondered when it gets -10 or colder my truck goes directly to the # 1 pump above that the blend pump. kerosene is a buck to a buck and a half higher #1 maybe 50-85 cents higher than winter blend never had #1 jell up

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Being part owner of a fuel supplier, I can talk semi-intelligently. Bio gets a bad rap because not all bio is the same. Bio is good stuff if you get the right one, unfortunately like everything else, everybody wants to make a buck by cheapening up.  In the beginning the bio diesel was all made from soybeans, and then someone (probably the gov.) decided that animal fat could also be considered bio. That is where the rub comes in. Animal bio gels at a much higher temp than soy bio does. It is also much cheaper, so guess which gets added. The animal, not the soy. There are hundreds of studies out there, and I don't remember the numbers, but I think a B20 mix of soy bio is good to below zero, where animal B20 mix gels close to freezing.

Also most additives will not work (or at least not as well) with Bio.

Just my 2 cents. We quit selling bio altogether after Oct 1st. because I could no longer be assured it was soy and not animal. I will though buy a tanker or two in the summer.    

PS: not all vegetable bio is the same either. If my memory is correct, Canola is the best, but expensive and not available in the midwest.

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Are biodiesel pumps marked and if not how do I know. I have a small utility tractor that I buy a 55 gallon drum of diesel at a time and it lasts about 3-5 months. I buy road fuel at a local station because off road is an hour away. Have not had to put anti gel in it and have not had a problem but it has never been this cold since I had the tractor. Sorry if I hijacked the thread, did not mean to.

Dennis

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