lbg57

MD sleeve question.

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I posted this question on here awhile back and received comments leading me in 2 different directions without a definite answer. Following is a little more info so maybe someone can clear up this question. Here goes.

I am restoring a 1951 Farmall MD. I had the block to the machinist I use to check the block, install new cam bushings and install new sleeves. This is where the question lies. The service manual states that the sleeves need to be .041" - .047" above the block deck. When I got mine back from the shop the sleeves are only .005" above the deck.

I called the parts distributor where I purchased the complete rebuild kit including all the gaskets and asked them what they thought. They asked the current mechanics in back and said no one ever questioned it before that they are aware of and there are not many old timers around who worked on these for a living to check with.

Next I called the machine shop and asked the same question. Both the owner and one of his machinist said that they thought .041" - .047" was an awful lot and that most engines require only about .005."

Next I posted the question on here and got answers in both directions. Some said that it needed to be at the .041" - .047" and others said that .005" would be fine.

Today I called my parts guy at an CNH dealership and asked him. He said he thought that it was printed in the service manual for a reason but maybe there could have been a head gasket change somewhere that was made and that I should ask the forum guys again what their thoughts were as someone had to have had this issue somewhere in the past.

Was there a head gasket change? I measured mine which is a CNH #225 604 A1 and the gasket itself is .075" thick and the fire ring on the gasket is .082".

 I know there are a lot of knowledgeable people on here who have worked on these older units that may have gone through this and give me a definite answer as to which is correct or know of anyone I can contact on this matter.

Thanks everyone for your patience.

 

 

 

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When you place the head gasket on top of the block does it set around the outside of the sleeve or is the head gasket used to seal the top of the sleeve.  If the gasket sits on top of the sleeve .005 is about right.  If the gasket sets around the outside of the sleeve the sleeve should stand out from the block that .041 to .047  It's been to many years since I had the head of of a gas start diesel so I do not remember where the gasket sets.

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In the service manual they give two specs.One is total height above block surface and the other is the flange height. Total height is .037-.049, flange height is .000-006.

IMG_20171230_165249949.jpg

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These might help.

IMG_20171230_170018594.jpg

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The parts book shows at least four changes to the cylinder head. And for good reason. The head gasket 305805R1 looks like it has changed once from 225604A1. There are two different sleeves. One for 3 7/8" and the other for 4" pistons. There is a serial number change but that appears to also be because of the grey iron pistons or aluminum and the bore change.

You could have the machinist push a sleeve out enough to measure the height of the lip of the new sleeves. Then measure your old sleeves. If you find the new sleeve lip is about .040 less in height, then your new ones need to be shimmed to the service manual specs. If both new/old sleeves are very close to being the same height, and you had no prior head gasket issues, then put it together that way at .005. That will take it back to the way it was, basically.

 It looks like the other guys have answered your questions. It don't hurt to be sure!

Let us know what you find?

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Thank you Kal for your 2 posts with the service manual pictures. That somewhat clears things up. The piston/sleeve set I purchased is a Power Max Engine Parts (now owned by Reliance Power Parts) I got through a dealer. Unfortunately I do not have the old sleeves to refer to..

In Kal's posts it shows a sleeve with a step on the flange I guess to act as a fire stop and the gasket would sit behind that ridge. My sleeves are totally flat across the top flange protrusion, no step.

With the current set up, the head gasket metal fire ring sits partially on top of the .005 flange protrusion of the sleeve. Do you think that this will work? Thanks again guys. Nothing can ever be simple I guess.  

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Can you get some pictures with the sleeves and gasket?

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Here are a couple of pictures of the sleeves and gasket. Hopefully. This is my first time posting pics.102_1953.thumb.JPG.d3a63996db135240d100cec93f0654b9.JPG102_1954.thumb.JPG.1d7621b9f9d719d0c536674b732f13aa.JPG102_1952.thumb.JPG.d67fd951926714b0f29f679a331e30f9.JPG

102_1951.JPG

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That looks more like a gas  than a diesel,is there any chance they gave you the wrong sleeves?

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That had crossed my mind also. Their are no pictures on the parts site to compare them to.

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Some 4 inch bore sleeves for a MD were made with a flat top. Some used a special gasket to hold the sleeves down and the old gasket number was 305805R2. Gasket number you have 225604A1 is supposed to be the replacement number for that gasket but never looked at a new number gasket. IH used to sell overbore MD P&S sets that said 305805R1 or 2 required.

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I haven't had a lot of these engines apart,but the ones I have had the fire dam on them.Learn something every day.

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  Looked at some of my old service and parts books to double check some things,found this that goes with what DMV stated.Still haven't found any pictures.Can you call the company that made these?

15149904642891934956178.jpg

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Your new sleeves do not have that protrusion part. I can't say that is really required as most modern stuff does not have that.  Based on that your machine shop did is right, .005 is how much the flange sits proud according to the specs provided.  I would say the theory in the original design was to locate the gasket and give the fire ring a barrier from combustion.  For sure the head would not sit on that protrusion as the head gasket would not compress that much.  So the barrier part maybe argued and the reason it was omitted from the replacement and all designs today.

 

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3 hours ago, kal said:

  Looked at some of my old service and parts books to double check some things,found this that goes with what DMV stated.Still haven't found any pictures.Can you call the company that made these?

15149904642891934956178.jpg

Trouble is I moved on to D-264 and D-281 engines and can't remember if that MD sleeve was flat on top.  Probably 25 years since  I was in a D-248. Aftermarket sets were in the mix also.

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I have been looking at this thread for a few days.  I think it has been pretty well covered.  I will add that I think that the sleeves with the flat top actually used a head gasket with a smaller inside diameter so it sat farther on the sleeve flange and also to use the fire ring on the head gasket to replace the fire ring protrusion that was on the original sleeve.   The head gasket wants a good bite on that flange as those sleeves are easy press fit and will move if not held down securely with the head gasket.  Also, the compression ratios is affected with inside diameter of that fire ring.    Seems to me that some time ago, a contributor on   here or one of these sites, had  done some measuring of the inside diameter of the head gaskets used on those D248, 264 and 281 but I can't find that. 

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I have not found a manual with more info either

correct me if thinking wrong....?

1  head gasket is required to take the space of not being able to (at that time) machine true and keep two different blocks of iron from expanding differently resulting in imperfection or holes between them,causing lost compression

2 head gasket must be flat and kept from combustion fire  otherwise will not seal and or eventually burn thru  which does occasionally occur due to #1  regardless

3 sleeve protrusion was required on higher compression loose fit sleeves to keep them from moving and thus would have an area built into the head for such compensation   (certain heads will not work with later parts or todays china^&%)

4 the fire ring  is a tempered ring sealing the gasket edge closest to the combustion fire

5 on occasion an addition fire ring would be placed on top of the sleeve to compensate for #1  and would need some form of locating insurance,+ sleeve settings to obtain proper crush

6...?parts for two different  systems applications are being combined here  due to correct parts being NLA along with lost knowledge resulting in no clear solution to the OP and others running

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2 hours ago, pete23 said:

I have been looking at this thread for a few days.  I think it has been pretty well covered.  I will add that I think that the sleeves with the flat top actually used a head gasket with a smaller inside diameter so it sat farther on the sleeve flange and also to use the fire ring on the head gasket to replace the fire ring protrusion that was on the original sleeve.   The head gasket wants a good bite on that flange as those sleeves are easy press fit and will move if not held down securely with the head gasket.  Also, the compression ratios is affected with inside diameter of that fire ring.    Seems to me that some time ago, a contributor on   here or one of these sites, had  done some measuring of the inside diameter of the head gaskets used on those D248, 264 and 281 but I can't find that. 

 Found some numbers I put down from measurement in past. Cylinder opening on 53436DE gasket 4.440, but I measured another at 4.430.  Gasket 305805R2, 4.165.  Both numbers have changed I think.  MD with 3-7/8 sleeves was using 53436DD but I think they started listing 53436DE to work on 3-7/8 bore D-248, D-264 and D281 engines. D-264 and D-281 sleeves have a small step on top with step width changed from thin wall to thick wall sleeves so the same gasket fits just off the step on both.  Not sure how good that gasket fits on a D-248 with 3-7/8 sleeves but think that's what case IH is calling for or it's replacement number. 

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I will try calling Reliance Power Parts and see if I can get someone to physically locate both a M & MD 4" sleeve to see if their is a difference and question them on this protrusion issue.

I suppose it will be like pulling teeth to get someone to actually do this. I will post what I find out if anything.

Thanks again to all those who have took the time to look into this matter. A great bunch here.  

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9 minutes ago, lbg57 said:

I will try calling Reliance Power Parts and see if I can get someone to physically locate both a M & MD 4" sleeve to see if their is a difference and question them on this protrusion issue.

I suppose it will be like pulling teeth to get someone to actually do this. I will post what I find out if anything.

Thanks again to all those who have took the time to look into this matter. A great bunch here.  

Diesel sleeves are longer than gas if I remember correct.

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I am more familiar with the 9 series gas start diesels. The WD-6's (same engine as an MD) that I do have are essentially the same engine design--just smaller. The following is a combination of information that I have from my own experience with the 9 series tractors and postings by Justin Weber a few years back

The original standard sleeves for the gas start diesels did protrude significantly above the block and 0.041-0.047 would be correct (approximately). The head gasket does not rest on top of the original protrusion sleeve in any way. The head gasket sits around the outside circumference of the sleeve. I suspect that most modern machine shops are not aware of this.

IH produced overbore kits where the replacement sleeves were essentially flush with the top of the block. This is where a different head gasket was required. This head gasket does rest on top of the IH overbore sleeves.

For the 9 series (and likely for MD's/WD-6's) IH only sold 2 head gaskets. One for the standard bore protrusion sleeves and one for the IH overbore non-protrusion sleeves. The "regular" tractors and "Supers" used the same head gaskets.

Aftermarket (Non-IH) overbore kits were available where the sleeves did protrude above the block and required the head gasket for the protrusion sleeves.

From your pictures, I think you have the wrong head gasket for your sleeves. The gasket needs to sit on top of the sleeves to hold them in place. If they were the original protrusion sleeves then the gasket would be outside of the sleeve lip and when the head is torqued down the gasket crushes until the head meets the top of the protruding sleeves.

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Red Mecury, I am struggling with the last part of your post.  If the head actually sits on the protrusion of the sleeve there would be a much tighter tolerance in the manual based on the total height variation that is .012+.006=.018, that could be the difference between breaking the sleeve off or seeping water.

I downloaded the pic from kal and this is what I am going to conclude.  The head gasket Fire Ring would need to sit on top of the sleeve shown in red.  The Orange indicates clearence between the head and the projected sleeve which you don't have in the replacement sleeve.

The .005 sleeve height will give the same effect as my V8 small block Ford that has a stainless wire in the block that protrudes. 002-.003.  It just gives enough bite into the fire ring in the original head gasket for a better seal for NOS.

20180104_133618.jpg

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In 1962 the bottom number is the head gasket used for a D-248 and the top number was the head gasket used in a D-248 to D-264 conversion package. Numbers are superseded now.  Bottom number was also used on D264 and 281. Right side is head gaskets.

DSCN1396.JPG

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7 hours ago, 460 said:

Red Mecury, I am struggling with the last part of your post.  If the head actually sits on the protrusion of the sleeve there would be a much tighter tolerance in the manual based on the total height variation that is .012+.006=.018, that could be the difference between breaking the sleeve off or seeping water.

I downloaded the pic from kal and this is what I am going to conclude.  The head gasket Fire Ring would need to sit on top of the sleeve shown in red.  The Orange indicates clearence between the head and the projected sleeve which you don't have in the replacement sleeve.

The .005 sleeve height will give the same effect as my V8 small block Ford that has a stainless wire in the block that protrudes. 002-.003.  It just gives enough bite into the fire ring in the original head gasket for a better seal for NOS.

20180104_133618.jpg

Hi 460. I agree with your markings on Kal's picture for the stepped sleeve. I would expect to see the gasket placed as you have indicated in red. I have never seen a sleeve on my gas start diesels (WD-9's) that has a step in the lip. For a sleeve that does have a step, I agree that the gasket would need to sit in/on the lower step of the sleeve for a proper seal. I think that's what you are getting at in Kal's picture and I fully agree.

When I take the head off of an original WD-9, the cylinder hole in the head gasket is bigger than the outside diameter of the sleeve lip. There is no step in the sleeves. The gasket fire ring is only sandwiched between the head and the block. The sleeve lip protrudes through the head gasket cylinder hole so that it is basically even with the head gasket or very close to it. The only thing holding those sleeves down is the contact with the head or the sleeve interference fit with the parent bore. Nothing is perfect and there likely are some slight differences between the height of the sleeves above the block. How much? I have never measured. All sleeve lips may not actually contact the head. Regardless, it's a design that worked well and I believe it likely does provide some degree of protection for the head gasket fire ring. I have never seen a blown head gasket on a WD-9. Other members have.

Just like other have said, I don't see a step in the sleeve lbg57's pictures, just a square top sleeve with a slight protrusion above the block deck which I believe should have the head gasket fire ring sitting fully on top of the lip. I also re-read lbg57's original post and he commented that the head gasket sits partially over the sleeve lip. I am thinking that the gasket may actually be intended for the step stepped sleeve lip shown in Kal's picture. It might work on lbg57's sleeves but I am thinking that the gasket should cover the entire sleeve lip since there is no sleeve step.

I am wondering if we are having some problems sorting this out because of the different replacement sleeves? This has caused a lot of confusion over the years. Original standard bore protrusion lip sleeves (no step), the step protrusion lip (shown in Kal's picture), and god knows how many aftermarket (jobber) sleeves are out there?

 

 

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