bwmuldoon

H starting tank questions

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It's been a while since I logged in on here, but I have recently been working on my H to get it repainted and, for the most part, restored. I'm doing or have done a couple updates to it like adding the easy rider seat, and planning to do a 12 volt conversion. I would like to keep it mostly original looking, and for that reason, I would like to get a small starting tank to put back on it. It's a 41 that was originally a distillate tractor, but I had to replace the manifold with a new, standard one. It does still have the hole in the hood that bothers me a little bit. Seeing some on ebay, I'm just curious for one thing, what is too much to pay for one? Also, will one from an M fit on the H? The other thing I was wondering is how do they get plumbed in to the fuel line? T in the line under the main tank or something? I figure it's something I might be able to add on later, but just need to know what to look for. 

Thanks, BradleyFB_IMG_1512567627173.thumb.jpg.e8262ac60ecc6d3284e815917ce9ba83.jpgIMG_20171206_172636612.thumb.jpg.0f7d3af4435b7f6d0b4969f1a5d4e682.jpg

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I do not know if the tank for an M will fit, but the original sediment bowl valve had a port the starting tank plumbed into.  Inside the valve body the port from it and from the carburetor were tied together, and the sediment bowl shut off closed fuel flow from the main tank and a cutoff on the bottom of the starting tank closed it.

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4 minutes ago, John cub owner said:

I do not know if the tank for an M will fit, but the original sediment bowl valve had a port the starting tank plumbed into.  Inside the valve body the port from it and from the carburetor were tied together, and the sediment bowl shut off closed fuel flow from the main tank and a cutoff on the bottom of the starting tank closed it.

I guess that helps explain why I have the wrong sediment bowl on the main tank.

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the start tanks were the same for the H and M up to serial # 24214. serial #24215 and up used a different tank

#23 strainer body 35144R91

5a45cb68cfb0f_hgastank.thumb.png.a267ff7d3310b8f5def6a708b9e66379.png

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11 hours ago, gordon76 said:

the start tanks were the same for the H and M up to serial # 24214. serial #24215 and up used a different tank

#23 strainer body 35144R91

5a45cb68cfb0f_hgastank.thumb.png.a267ff7d3310b8f5def6a708b9e66379.png

Thanks, that helps me out a little bit. Looked further at one I saw for an M, the bracket on it definitely looks a little bit different. 

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How did that work, switching from gasoline to distillate?  Shut off one fuel and open the other at the fuel line?

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34 minutes ago, drglinski said:

How did that work, switching from gasoline to distillate?  Shut off one fuel and open the other at the fuel line?

Yup.  Started on gasoline and closed the radiator shutters to warm up faster.  When engine at operating temperature closed the gas valve and opened main tank to allow distillate to flow in, as distillate mixed with gas in carb, and finally replaced it all kept adjusting the carb by opening  the carburetor load and idle valve.  With a little practice you knew how much.  Then adjusted shutters depending on how hard you were going to work then tractor, to burn distillate the engine had to stay hot.  If it cooled you had to do it all over again.    The reason for going through all of this was that originally distillate was less than half the price of gasoline, but they did the same amount of work per pound, so you  actually got a little more work out of a gallon of distillate than a gallon of gasoline for half the money.

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Neat!  Learned something new.  I like that it was based on operator knowledge how to make it run right and not some sort of electronic monitoring system. I know how gas start diesels worked but never really knew about the gas/distallite engines.  Thanks!

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A friend of mine was an IH Farmall parts guy for several decades.  These pictures show the way he said they were plumbed from the factory for the vintage H that you and I have - sediment bowl under the starting tank with the big distillate tank plumbed into that valve.

I've made up some home-made distillate fuel based on some info. posted here years ago by an Aussie fellow (very grateful for that info. BTW) and the tractor runs fine.  My '42 has functional shutters and a distillate manifold with the manifold heat shield but, in all honesty, once it's warmed up, it's not very fussy about which fuel you're running unless it's mid-winter in snow country!

IMG_4169.JPG

IMG_4170.JPG

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2 hours ago, fputnamjr said:

A friend of mine was an IH Farmall parts guy for several decades.  These pictures show the way he said they were plumbed from the factory for the vintage H that you and I have - sediment bowl under the starting tank with the big distillate tank plumbed into that valve.

I've made up some home-made distillate fuel based on some info. posted here years ago by an Aussie fellow (very grateful for that info. BTW) and the tractor runs fine.  My '42 has functional shutters and a distillate manifold with the manifold heat shield but, in all honesty, once it's warmed up, it's not very fussy about which fuel you're running unless it's mid-winter in snow country!

IMG_4169.JPG

IMG_4170.JPG

That looks really nice! I figure since I don't have the manifold, running distillate is a no-go for me, but I sure would like to have the tank on it for the looks, just have it plumbed to run gasoline in both of them. Trying to decide if the $140 price on the tank I found on ebay is worthwhile. 

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3 hours ago, John cub owner said:

Yup.  Started on gasoline and closed the radiator shutters to warm up faster.  When engine at operating temperature closed the gas valve and opened main tank to allow distillate to flow in, as distillate mixed with gas in carb, and finally replaced it all kept adjusting the carb by opening  the carburetor load and idle valve.  With a little practice you knew how much.  Then adjusted shutters depending on how hard you were going to work then tractor, to burn distillate the engine had to stay hot.  If it cooled you had to do it all over again.    The reason for going through all of this was that originally distillate was less than half the price of gasoline, but they did the same amount of work per pound, so you  actually got a little more work out of a gallon of distillate than a gallon of gasoline for half the money.

Thanks for that info! I'm way too young to know anything about running distillate, but have always been intrigued by the concept of it.

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My Dad's 41 H that I now own is older than I am, and has the sediment bowl under the main tank which I always thought was it's original location.  However I went to the basement and checked the owner's manual and it does show the sediment bowl under the starting tank and only a cut off under the main tank.  Live and learn.

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Distillate was a by-product of the oil refining process way back when. It was also called TVO - tractor vaporizing oil.  The Aussie fellow told us that distillate had an octane rating that varied from 30 to 55.  Unleaded gas is 85 octane.  Kerosene is 15-20 octane.  So, if you make a blend of 1 gallon of gasoline to 2 gallons of kerosene, you end up with an approximation of distillate.  The lower octane rating is why the multi-fuel engines ran at lower compression ratios.

If you ever want to try running on this blend, you can do so during the summer without the shutters or baffled manifold.  Just warm it up on gasoline first.  You likely won't be able to tell the difference!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tractor_vaporising_oil

FYI, there are two fuel tank valves on the multi-fuel Hs so you could control which tank the fuel came from.  Close the valve in the big tank and open the valve on the starter tank to warm up on gas, then reverse to run on fuel out of the big tank. The sediment bowl valves on these multi-fuels was different in that there were two lines in - one from the starter tank (plumbed direct) and one from the main tank.

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12 hours ago, John cub owner said:

My Dad's 41 H that I now own is older than I am, and has the sediment bowl under the main tank which I always thought was it's original location.  However I went to the basement and checked the owner's manual and it does show the sediment bowl under the starting tank and only a cut off under the main tank.  Live and learn.

 41 came with sediment bowl under the big tank. Late 40 also.  Since the sediment bowl location from gasoline start tank to fuel tank change was  made from near end of 40 the manual is behind. Dave

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I have my Dad's 41 H back to original with the distillate manifold, original heat shield, gas tank and lines. Mine had the dual line sediment bowl under the big tank. John Cub Owner's reply then had me question if this was right. Then, according to DWV, my 1941 is then right. This apparently was a running change made by IH.

When I was putting mine back together, I could not find a new dual fuel line sediment bowl. Mine had the threads stripped out of one line. A local machinist put in a piece of helicoil and fixed it for me. Stronger than new. Someone may make the dual line but I could not find it. If you now have a dual fuel one, treat it like gold. Original manifold heat shields are almost never found so if you find one, buy it.

The picture of yours Bradley brings back good memories of tinkering on my Dad's old tractor.  Mine is serial # FBH-73690. Yours should be close. Keep posting pictures of your progress and let us know if you have any questions. 

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4 hours ago, Diesel Doctor said:

I have my Dad's 41 H back to original with the distillate manifold, original heat shield, gas tank and lines. Mine had the dual line sediment bowl under the big tank. John Cub Owner's reply then had me question if this was right. Then, according to DWV, my 1941 is then right. This apparently was a running change made by IH.

When I was putting mine back together, I could not find a new dual fuel line sediment bowl. Mine had the threads stripped out of one line. A local machinist put in a piece of helicoil and fixed it for me. Stronger than new. Someone may make the dual line but I could not find it. If you now have a dual fuel one, treat it like gold. Original manifold heat shields are almost never found so if you find one, buy it.

The picture of yours Bradley brings back good memories of tinkering on my Dad's old tractor.  Mine is serial # FBH-73690. Yours should be close. Keep posting pictures of your progress and let us know if you have any questions. 

I am going to try getting back here a little more often and keep updating. Serial number on this one is 91562 IIRC. Engine block was cast day after Pearl Harbor attack. I want to get this one done by spring so I can get started on my F-20 that was my Grandpa's in the summer.

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13 hours ago, fputnamjr said:

 

Distillate was a by-product of the oil refining process way back when. It was also called TVO - tractor vaporizing oil.  The Aussie fellow told us that distillate had an octane rating that varied from 30 to 55.  Unleaded gas is 85 octane.  Kerosene is 15-20 octane.  So, if you make a blend of 1 gallon of gasoline to 2 gallons of kerosene, you end up with an approximation of distillate.  The lower octane rating is why the multi-fuel engines ran at lower compression ratios.

If you ever want to try running on this blend, you can do so during the summer without the shutters or baffled manifold.  Just warm it up on gasoline first.  You likely won't be able to tell the difference!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tractor_vaporising_oil

FYI, there are two fuel tank valves on the multi-fuel Hs so you could control which tank the fuel came from.  Close the valve in the big tank and open the valve on the starter tank to warm up on gas, then reverse to run on fuel out of the big tank. The sediment bowl valves on these multi-fuels was different in that there were two lines in - one from the starter tank (plumbed direct) and one from the main tank.

I'm always amazed at the knowledge passed along on this site. I may try this some day.

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5 hours ago, Diesel Doctor said:

I have my Dad's 41 H back to original with the distillate manifold, original heat shield, gas tank and lines. Mine had the dual line sediment bowl under the big tank. John Cub Owner's reply then had me question if this was right. Then, according to DWV, my 1941 is then right. This apparently was a running change made by IH.

When I was putting mine back together, I could not find a new dual fuel line sediment bowl. Mine had the threads stripped out of one line. A local machinist put in a piece of helicoil and fixed it for me. Stronger than new. Someone may make the dual line but I could not find it. If you now have a dual fuel one, treat it like gold. Original manifold heat shields are almost never found so if you find one, buy it.

The picture of yours Bradley brings back good memories of tinkering on my Dad's old tractor.  Mine is serial # FBH-73690. Yours should be close. Keep posting pictures of your progress and let us know if you have any questions. 

 41 on the dairy farm was 62509X1.  Came with starting and lighting and the pin in lower steering post to push starter switch that was unhandy.  Switched PTO to latest type. Serial number 50866 and up used the strainer under big tank and shut off valve under little tank.  Dave

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To answer your question.  No, $140 is insanely high priced.  Drop the $100 and that's the highest I have seen them sell at an auction.

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I have seen those starting tanks sell for a lot more than US$140 on ebay. I have seen the heat shields sell for over US$270. I was lucky when I picked up a good used distillate manifold and a heat shield when I was in the USA last time as they are just not available here in New Zealand. Like most of the distillate parts no one is making new ones, so if you can find one price is almost a secondary consideration if you want to get your tractor to be as original as possible. The other option is to fill the hole in the hood and leave it as a gas only tractor. The serial tag and engine serial number will still show it as a distillate tractor though.

Only the very early Farmall Hs had the fuel bowl under the starting tank, the later ones had the fuel bowl under the main tank and the starting tank connecting to it.

The fuel sediment bowls are being reproduced by companies like Steiner Tractor Parts and the fuel line between the two tanks is also available

I had to change the fittings at the fuel bowl on my 1947 W4 to get the original fuel line (main tank to the carb ) to fit the new fuel bowl. Someone had fitted an AC fuel bowl in the past and had altered the fuel line as it fitted at a different angle.. I replaced the AC fuel bowl as it wouldn't shut the fuel off and always leaked. As you can see in the first photo of my W4 the starting tank fuel line is the looped pipe hidden behind the fuel line to the carb and has a 90 degree bend in the pipe into the fuel bowl.

IMG_1656.JPG

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IMG_1504.JPG

14369898_1199102280142740_8620293340242890761_n.jpg

The distillate fuel bowl and tank on my 1941 Farmall A. the fuel tap was missing and the main tank had been blocked off. I fitted a new dual distillate fuel bowl so i could shut off the main fuel tank and use the either tank when i wanted too.

IMG_1026.JPG

 

IMG_1035.JPG

Marty,NZ

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We have a 39 model h that was an all fuel. The shutters have been removed and I have removed and replaced the all fuel manifold but still have the original. This the actor has a small fuel bowl under the starting tank and a regular shut off under the main tank. Never have seen the heat shield on the manifold before. Ours has just run straight gas since the 50’s. Someone stated there is more power in distillate but I don’t think that’s correct. If you look at Nebraska tests horsepower figures were always lower for the distillate engine

this Tractor must have tens of thousands or hours on it. It came to our farm from the neighbors who bought it new and has worked here ever since. Sits outside every night but runs every day to feed the cows

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16 hours ago, Scott! said:

To answer your question.  No, $140 is insanely high priced.  Drop the $100 and that's the highest I have seen them sell at an auction.

That was my thoughts on it too. There was another that the auction starting price was 40 something, but the shipping was going to be another 55 I think!

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4 hours ago, Bdse25 said:

We have a 39 model h that was an all fuel. The shutters have been removed and I have removed and replaced the all fuel manifold but still have the original. This the actor has a small fuel bowl under the starting tank and a regular shut off under the main tank. Never have seen the heat shield on the manifold before. Ours has just run straight gas since the 50’s. Someone stated there is more power in distillate but I don’t think that’s correct. If you look at Nebraska tests horsepower figures were always lower for the distillate engine

this Tractor must have tens of thousands or hours on it. It came to our farm from the neighbors who bought it new and has worked here ever since. Sits outside every night but runs every day to feed the cows

I think mine had sat outside nearly every night until I bought it, but seems to be low houred. The hitch parts, unless they have been replaced, all have very little wear on them. What I thought was rust and paint on the tractor looked more like it was mildew when we washed it off. It has had a roof over it almost every night since though. 5a4931ce6aaf0_Phone8-2-15602.jpg.6601308133addfd16d7ffdd06193c227.jpgThis picture is about 7 years old from when I first got it.

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I have mine back to almost original condition with the distillate package pretty much complete and has the shutters. I still crank it to start  it. It has a Mag and starts very easy. I do have the 6 volt system put back on and all is needed is a new 6 volt battery. It also has the smaller PTO shaft on it and a Knoedler seat. The plate under the crankshaft pulley was found too. I'm glad I have my missing parts found. Still want a belt pulley and they are proud of the good ones. One will show up.

If you find a manifold heat shield, most are in good condition as they were taken off early and hung in the shop. Just finding one is the issue.

 

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On ‎1‎/‎1‎/‎2018 at 11:23 PM, Diesel Doctor said:

I have mine back to almost original condition with the distillate package pretty much complete and has the shutters. I still crank it to start  it. It has a Mag and starts very easy. I do have the 6 volt system put back on and all is needed is a new 6 volt battery. It also has the smaller PTO shaft on it and a Knoedler seat. The plate under the crankshaft pulley was found too. I'm glad I have my missing parts found. Still want a belt pulley and they are proud of the good ones. One will show up.

If you find a manifold heat shield, most are in good condition as they were taken off early and hung in the shop. Just finding one is the issue.

 

What is the Knoedler seat? I've not heard that name before.

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