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7 minutes ago, Reichow7120 said:

Personally I trust neither side. Each side has a agenda to push. Government included.  

You were putting out figures and to have a true honest discussion you need opposing viewpoints. You definitely believe strongly in your viewpoints and a number of us believe ours.

There is a saying. Numbers never lie but the people who figure them sure do. That applies to BOTH SIDES the argument 

Im not quoting Democrat or Republican numbers here.  Just the numbers as I find them.  Both my chart and mader's are right.  Mine just tells the whole story not just a selected parts of it.

It is also true that the market has been experiencing a "Trump Bump" because they are all getting juicy over his pending tax and regulatory cuts.  How that is going to translate into prosperity for the rest of us is yet to be seen.  But in fact we've seen it all before and it never worked ever once.  Remember Bush's tax cuts?  They are still with us.  Why aint we rich then?

Its a scam, boys.  Its nothing but a scam.  Time will prove Im right.  It did before and it will again.  Just wait for it.

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1 hour ago, oldtech said:

 

Second,  you are misinterpreting the data.  In fact 51.9% of all income is earned by the top quintile - meaning top 20% of wage 

Nice try, oldtech. I am NOT misinterpreting the data.  Mader656 referred to the bottom 50%, which I took to mean the bottom 50% of the income scale. I don’t believe he was referring to the bottom 50% of total dollars received as income.  You are correct that the top 51.9% of income is earned by only 20% of the population. Now let’s add in taxes, not just income, since you want to talk about that. The top 1% of earners paid 39.5% of all income taxes in 2014. The top 10% paid almost 71% of all income taxes that year. Again, to correct YOUR misinterpretation, these are NOT wage earners. These are people who make money, not wages. They are rewarded financially for doing their job, managing their money well, and/or taking risks. To finish this data set, the bottom 80% OF THE INCOME SCALE paid only 15% of total income tax receipts. So yes, it makes a heck of a lot of sense that tax cuts SHOULD BENEFIT THOSE WHO PAY TAXES!!!!!

 

BTW, how the **** do you know how much I make?

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     Fellas ,

        I have skimmed through most of the posts and based on my years in Farming and on Farm Credit board and having Farmed and held on by a shoe string through the eighties this is what I see based on my own investments.  No graphs or hyperbole.

        The reason the Union Funds are hurting is because of the low interest rates , I don't care how white you shirt or how fancy your office is  you cannot squeeze blood out of a turnip. Interest rates are hurting most retirement funds ,IRA, 401 K's.

        The reason economy or Market is on fire is solely because Market see's Trump as business friendly and the market is anticipating good environment in near future as in less Regs, less red tape and they are anticipating great influx of off shore money.

  As for Farming ,its been my experience that when economy does well Ag suffers, We can see it happening with low commodity prices and its been my Experience that a Rising or lowering tide lifts or lowers all boats . Out west here even though we  farm different commodities usually after three or four years of lower mid western prices ours follow suit.

    I think its very simple  , Higher interest rates help retirement funds and positive financial outlooks power the economy.

   As far as taxes , that's why God created Accountants , work with a good accountant ,force yourself to invest in anything that appreciates and can provide write offs. By doing this you will be able to control a part of your destiny and not depend on a white shirt full of B.S. to control you retirement .

      Just my Humble Opinion from an old Farmer,

           Tony 

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23 minutes ago, ihrondiesel said:

Nice try, oldtech. I am NOT misinterpreting the data.  Mader656 referred to the bottom 50%, which I took to mean the bottom 50% of the income scale. I don’t believe he was referring to the bottom 50% of total dollars received as income.  You are correct that the top 51.9% of income is earned by only 20% of the population. Now let’s add in taxes, not just income, since you want to talk about that. The top 1% of earners paid 39.5% of all income taxes in 2014. The top 10% paid almost 71% of all income taxes that year. Again, to correct YOUR misinterpretation, these are NOT wage earners. These are people who make money, not wages. They are rewarded financially for doing their job, managing their money well, and/or taking risks. To finish this data set, the bottom 80% OF THE INCOME SCALE paid only 15% of total income tax receipts. So yes, it makes a heck of a lot of sense that tax cuts SHOULD BENEFIT THOSE WHO PAY TAXES!!!!!

 

BTW, how the **** do you know how much I make?

Sorry, but you are wrong.  These figures refer only to income tax.  Managers, CEOs and investors and the like pay only capital gains tax which last time I checked was 15%.  They do not pay FICA (Payroll taxes) either.  AND they only pay those taxes when they sell a stock and only on the profits so many of them pay very little if any taxes.

If you look at the actual numbers most of the top 10% only go up to around a quarter million.  That wage money not capital money, sorry.

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31 minutes ago, tony in ca. said:

     Fellas ,

        I have skimmed through most of the posts and based on my years in Farming and on Farm Credit board and having Farmed and held on by a shoe string through the eighties this is what I see based on my own investments.  No graphs or hyperbole.

        The reason the Union Funds are hurting is because of the low interest rates , I don't care how white you shirt or how fancy your office is  you cannot squeeze blood out of a turnip. Interest rates are hurting most retirement funds ,IRA, 401 K's.

        The reason economy or Market is on fire is solely because Market see's Trump as business friendly and the market is anticipating good environment in near future as in less Regs, less red tape and they are anticipating great influx of off shore money.

  As for Farming ,its been my experience that when economy does well Ag suffers, We can see it happening with low commodity prices and its been my Experience that a Rising or lowering tide lifts or lowers all boats . Out west here even though we  farm different commodities usually after three or four years of lower mid western prices ours follow suit.

    I think its very simple  , Higher interest rates help retirement funds and positive financial outlooks power the economy.

   As far as taxes , that's why God created Accountants , work with a good accountant ,force yourself to invest in anything that appreciates and can provide write offs. By doing this you will be able to control a part of your destiny and not depend on a white shirt full of B.S. to control you retirement .

      Just my Humble Opinion from an old Farmer,

           Tony 

Tony, I always appreciate reading your input on threads like this. Wisdom can be hard to come by nowadays.

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2 minutes ago, oldtech said:

Sorry, but you are wrong.  These figures refer only to income tax.  Managers, CEOs and investors and the like pay only capital gains tax which last time I checked was 15%.  They do not pay FICA (Payroll taxes) either.  AND they only pay those taxes when they sell a stock and only on the profits so many of them pay very little if any taxes.

If you look at the actual numbers most of the top 10% only go up to around a quarter million.  That wage money not capital money, sorry.

Investors may pay only capital gains but any manager or CEO who gets paid a salary pays income tax on that salary. 

And if it was YOUR money that was growing I highly doubt even a liberal like yourself  would offer to pay any kind of tax on an unrealized gain. 

You still haven’t told me how much I make, either. 

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25 minutes ago, tony in ca. said:

     Fellas ,

        I have skimmed through most of the posts and based on my years in Farming and on Farm Credit board and having Farmed and held on by a shoe string through the eighties this is what I see based on my own investments.  No graphs or hyperbole.

        The reason the Union Funds are hurting is because of the low interest rates , I don't care how white you shirt or how fancy your office is  you cannot squeeze blood out of a turnip. Interest rates are hurting most retirement funds ,IRA, 401 K's.

        The reason economy or Market is on fire is solely because Market see's Trump as business friendly and the market is anticipating good environment in near future as in less Regs, less red tape and they are anticipating great influx of off shore money.

  As for Farming ,its been my experience that when economy does well Ag suffers, We can see it happening with low commodity prices and its been my Experience that a Rising or lowering tide lifts or lowers all boats . Out west here even though we  farm different commodities usually after three or four years of lower mid western prices ours follow suit.

    I think its very simple  , Higher interest rates help retirement funds and positive financial outlooks power the economy.

   As far as taxes , that's why God created Accountants , work with a good accountant ,force yourself to invest in anything that appreciates and can provide write offs. By doing this you will be able to control a part of your destiny and not depend on a white shirt full of B.S. to control you retirement .

      Just my Humble Opinion from an old Farmer,

           Tony 

I will agree with everything except the part about interest rates.

I do agree that low interest rates hurt regular savings accounts but this has absolutely NOTHING to do with 401Ks and the like.  I recently tried to convince my 93 year old dad to pull his CDs at the bank which he gets only about 1/2% interest on and invest it in a fund like Vanguard where I have my brother's estate fund invested for his kids (he died of cancer a couple years ago).  The return rate on that fund as well as his 401K from work earn almost 10 times what dad gets on dad's crappy CDs.  The money comes from both stock appreciation and dividends from reliable profitable companies.

You need to get a handle on the differences.

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2 minutes ago, ihrondiesel said:

Investors may pay only capital gains but any manager or CEO who gets paid a salary pays income tax on that salary. 

And if it was YOUR money that was growing I highly doubt even a liberal like yourself  would offer to pay any kind of tax on an unrealized gain. 

You still haven’t told me how much I make, either. 

Wrong again.

These people do NOT TAKE SALARIES.  Why should they do that and pay taxes like we do?  They dont.  They simply dont.  Please check this out on your own.

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Turns out I was partly wrong.  They pay 20% not 15%...

 

The incentive fee is taxed at the long-term capital gains rate of 20% as opposed to ordinary income tax rates, where the top rate is 39.6%. This represents significant tax savings for hedge fund managers.Oct 14, 2015

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1 hour ago, oldtech said:

I will agree with everything except the part about interest rates.

I do agree that low interest rates hurt regular savings accounts but this has absolutely NOTHING to do with 401Ks and the like.  I recently tried to convince my 93 year old dad to pull his CDs at the bank which he gets only about 1/2% interest on and invest it in a fund like Vanguard where I have my brother's estate fund invested for his kids (he died of cancer a couple years ago).  The return rate on that fund as well as his 401K from work earn almost 10 times what dad gets on dad's crappy CDs.  The money comes from both stock appreciation and dividends from reliable profitable companies.

You need to get a handle on the differences.

 I did get a handle and I cashed out all IRA's , Mutual funds , etc , told the broker to stuff his tie where the sun does not shine and invested it into more land and investment properties .  Today my properties have appreciated and I have enjoyed tax write offs along the way. 

    I have nothing in market and basically live off investment income. Since retiring from Farming last April. Still have 20 acres of Almonds to Farm

      However, I know there is money to be made on market, My wife has her retirement in market and every month she lights a candle to President Trump and tells me how much she has appreciated since he took over.

     I just do not have the temperament to be in market , I like to step on the land that my investments are on.

        When I was young an old timer told me ; " Young man invest your money in what you know " The only thing I half way know is land . Farm or Properties. Its my comfort zone and I feel very comfortable with it and am always SHOUTING FROM THE ROOF TOP ," YOUNGINS BUY LAND OR PROPERTIES !"

     Tony

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So let me get this straight. These hedge fund managers and CEO’s who are not paid salaries only pay tax when they sell a stock, and then only on the profits?  Dear God, it sounds like they only pay tax on the income they made from that stock!!!  I guess if everyone could do that, everyone would!!!!  (Slapping myself upside the face) Oh wait, NOT everyone can do the job of a CEO or hedge fund manager. Sounds like you want the same tax benefits they have. Guess you better go manage a hedge fund. 

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Thanks Mr Ramos, good Ol insight.  Sucessfull old farmers always have a little $ no matter what's going on.  Like now with my robot project.  Milk price don't look great it is a leased place but for some reason we generally stay above water no matter what. Bankers and acct are on board too.  I guess I have figured out how to make $ milking.  Not always "real" $ but my assets go up and if it all falls apart I will have something still.  We toy with urban/housing real estate sometimes and kinda don't feel comfy with it. ...2008 hit here haaaard.  Lots lost everything.  

.....sigh, is certain areas of WI under a snow globe blocking facts and truth.  

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34 minutes ago, TroyDairy said:

Thanks Mr Ramos, good Ol insight.  Sucessfull old farmers always have a little $ no matter what's going on.  Like now with my robot project.  Milk price don't look great it is a leased place but for some reason we generally stay above water no matter what. Bankers and acct are on board too.  I guess I have figured out how to make $ milking.  Not always "real" $ but my assets go up and if it all falls apart I will have something still.  We toy with urban/housing real estate sometimes and kinda don't feel comfy with it. ...2008 hit here haaaard.  Lots lost everything.  

.....sigh, is certain areas of WI under a snow globe blocking facts and truth.  

    Troy,  When thinking of going into urban real estate , Do not go on speculation , instead find a property that will return you a decent rate of return and is in decent area and has potential to appreciate gradually. Hire a property management firm to deal with day to day. Look for long term when you are retirement age it is like a cow it keeps giving milk every month. At retirement age it should be paid for or really close. Be skeptical of  large shopping centers promising great returns, if you loose your anchor store your in trouble.

  Also many drug stores go in build in every corner pay horrendous good rents then when dust settles they come back to renegotiate rents because they know they have you trapped.

  So the old adage of Pigs get fat & hogs get slaughtered ,just go for solid properties that offer a good return on investment and that you have reasonable control over.

    The Robots in my humble opinion make since because its the wave of future for young progressive dairymen . If you can justify them in tough times I don't need to tell you whats going to happen when things are good.

      Another thought fellas this is INVESTING IN YOURSELF  your your own blue chip company.

      Its scary but what isn't when your venturing into new territory? As they say in the market the higher the risk the higher the return.

     Tony   

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8 hours ago, ihrondiesel said:

So let me get this straight. These hedge fund managers and CEO’s who are not paid salaries only pay tax when they sell a stock, and then only on the profits?  Dear God, it sounds like they only pay tax on the income they made from that stock!!!  I guess if everyone could do that, everyone would!!!!  (Slapping myself upside the face) Oh wait, NOT everyone can do the job of a CEO or hedge fund manager. Sounds like you want the same tax benefits they have. Guess you better go manage a hedge fund. 

That isnt the point.  They pay a substantially lower rate than us mere mortals.  I guess the rich need it more....

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7 hours ago, tony in ca. said:

    Troy,  When thinking of going into urban real estate , Do not go on speculation , instead find a property that will return you a decent rate of return and is in decent area and has potential to appreciate gradually. Hire a property management firm to deal with day to day. Look for long term when you are retirement age it is like a cow it keeps giving milk every month. At retirement age it should be paid for or really close. Be skeptical of  large shopping centers promising great returns, if you loose your anchor store your in trouble.

  Also many drug stores go in build in every corner pay horrendous good rents then when dust settles they come back to renegotiate rents because they know they have you trapped.

  So the old adage of Pigs get fat & hogs get slaughtered ,just go for solid properties that offer a good return on investment and that you have reasonable control over.

    The Robots in my humble opinion make since because its the wave of future for young progressive dairymen . If you can justify them in tough times I don't need to tell you whats going to happen when things are good.

      Another thought fellas this is INVESTING IN YOURSELF  your your own blue chip company.

      Its scary but what isn't when your venturing into new territory? As they say in the market the higher the risk the higher the return.

     Tony   

Actually you and I are a lot alike.  I rent my farmland out and own an apartment building in town while my wife has the IRA.

I hope she realizes though that this Trump Bump is a bubble.  After this tax bill passes and the effects set in there is going to be another recession.

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As an owner of an older downtown urban building with 25 years of experience in renovations, maintenance, dealing with renters and all that goes with it I suggest that you go slow.  Independent minded farmers are in general not prepared for the give and take and usual human behaviors you are going to encounter.  Legalities aside, not being present at the building every day has been a problem in policing damage and things like disputes between tenants.  Even things like unreported maintenance problems like leaky toilets can turn into major damage before you know it.

When we lived in town and in fact I used the first floor for my business things went much smoother.  Now that we are living at the farm again and Im retired and not present on a daily basis things have often gotten out of control.  Ive been doing a lot of updating there now with a view to selling it.  I have a small mortgage on the farm I can easily pay off and frankly after all is said and done, not having that payment will be pretty close to what I net from the building after taxes, insurance, maintenance etc... and without the aggravation.

If you think that commercial real estate is better, think again.  Unless you own prime business real estate (which can be really pricey) it can be really hard to find viable business tenants.  You can find all the executive wife types who want to run a gifty-crafty shop but few of them will be survivable for long.  Just do yourself a favor and take a good long look before you leap!

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4 minutes ago, oldtech said:

Actually you and I are a lot alike.  I rent my farmland out and own an apartment building in town while my wife has the IRA.

I hope she realizes though that this Trump Bump is a bubble.  After this tax bill passes and the effects set in there is going to be another recession.

       Pretty much always is a recession .  Economy get overly excited heats up expands then all of a sudden something scares people and economy retracts.

        A Banking professor I had in college in 1968, told the class ;" If You want to really learn how to invest in the market , You need to go check in to a psychology  Class , figure out people's thinking".  So True yet today.

   As for the current tax plan being proposed we are going to win a few and loose a few, need to be on top of it with a good accountant.  As a rule of thumb most tax plans give you up front with a smile and take away behind your back.

     Tony

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5 minutes ago, oldtech said:

As an owner of an older downtown urban building with 25 years of experience in renovations, maintenance, dealing with renters and all that goes with it I suggest that you go slow.  Independent minded farmers are in general not prepared for the give and take and usual human behaviors you are going to encounter.  Legalities aside, not being present at the building every day has been a problem in policing damage and things like disputes between tenants.  Even things like unreported maintenance problems like leaky toilets can turn into major damage before you know it.

When we lived in town and in fact I used the first floor for my business things went much smoother.  Now that we are living at the farm again and Im retired and not present on a daily basis things have often gotten out of control.  Ive been doing a lot of updating there now with a view to selling it.  I have a small mortgage on the farm I can easily pay off and frankly after all is said and done, not having that payment will be pretty close to what I net from the building after taxes, insurance, maintenance etc... and without the aggravation.

If you think that commercial real estate is better, think again.  Unless you own prime business real estate (which can be really pricey) it can be really hard to find viable business tenants.  You can find all the executive wife types who want to run a gifty-crafty shop but few of them will be survivable for long.  Just do yourself a favor and take a good long look before you leap!

     Yep , You need to be selective and in your own comfort level.  New "entry level" homes and New Apartments enticed me . Broker's mostly will tell you no to hard to manage.  However, I Have  had no problems ,so far , using management and me doing visits quarterly.  WE do have one commercial property but its a 9000 sq ft strip mall near beach on central coast and tenants been there quite a while , so far so good, also a different management co.

      Use your gut and advise of a trusted real Estate broker.

        Tony

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1 hour ago, oldtech said:

That isnt the point.  They pay a substantially lower rate than us mere mortals.  I guess the rich need it more....

They don’t pay a lower rate because they are rich, they pay a lower rate because it’s a different type of income, goes back to the risk/reward thing. Any of ‘us mere mortals’ can make the same type of income and pay the same tax rates as ‘the rich’.  So it’s probably more correct to say “they are rich because they pay a lower rate” than to say “they pay a lower rate because they are rich”.

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1 hour ago, oldtech said:

Actually you and I are a lot alike.  I rent my farmland out and own an apartment building in town while my wife has the IRA.

I hope she realizes though that this Trump Bump is a bubble.  After this tax bill passes and the effects set in there is going to be another recession.

Yes there will be another recession, we are always one day away from one. 

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4 minutes ago, ihrondiesel said:

They don’t pay a lower rate because they are rich, they pay a lower rate because it’s a different type of income, goes back to the risk/reward thing. Any of ‘us mere mortals’ can make the same type of income and pay the same tax rates as ‘the rich’.  So it’s probably more correct to say “they are rich because they pay a lower rate” than to say “they pay a lower rate because they are rich”.

So, rich because they pay a lower rate is OK with you?

Why cant you pay that lower rate too?  Then you'd be rich too, right?

Why do we penalize labor over capital?  We already know that capital begets more money than labor ever will but yet we think that taxing labor more is a good idea.

Corporate profits are now going to drop to their same 20% rate too.  I guess they are more important than you.

As far as risk vs. reward... you can write off business losses on your taxes but not ordinary medical bills.  Currently you can write off very large medical bills but the new tax bill takes that away along with mortgage and student loan interest among other things.  Most people earning under $75,000 are actually going to see a tax HIKE!  And what rate cuts there are are going to end in 2025 but ONLY for lower quintile wage earners.

How about this???  Everybody pays the same rates?  You think that might be fare?

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28 minutes ago, oldtech said:

So, rich because they pay a lower rate is OK with you?

Why cant you pay that lower rate too?  Then you'd be rich too, right?

Why do we penalize labor over capital?  We already know that capital begets more money than labor ever will but yet we think that taxing labor more is a good idea.

Corporate profits are now going to drop to their same 20% rate too.  I guess they are more important than you.

As far as risk vs. reward... you can write off business losses on your taxes but not ordinary medical bills.  Currently you can write off very large medical bills but the new tax bill takes that away along with mortgage and student loan interest among other things.  Most people earning under $75,000 are actually going to see a tax HIKE!  And what rate cuts there are are going to end in 2025 but ONLY for lower quintile wage earners.

How about this???  Everybody pays the same rates?  You think that might be fare?

Actually I think something like a flat tax would be the best. 

As far as taxing labor and capital—the tax system is used by politicians to reward certain behaviors, thus a behavior with more inherent risk (capital) gets a better rate than a behavior with lower risk (labor).  I’m not saying it’s right but that is how it is set up. Maybe it would be better to let the market do the rewarding, not the tax system.  

And I can pay that lower tax rate on any income I have from those sources. 

The new tax bill is probably going to be junk legislation no matter what because there are only a few in Congress who aren’t members of the establishment. Until the swamp is drained any legislation is just going to benefit them and their buddies. 

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1 hour ago, tony in ca. said:

       Pretty much always is a recession .  Economy get overly excited heats up expands then all of a sudden something scares people and economy retracts.

        A Banking professor I had in college in 1968, told the class ;" If You want to really learn how to invest in the market , You need to go check in to a psychology  Class , figure out people's thinking".  So True yet today.

   As for the current tax plan being proposed we are going to win a few and loose a few, need to be on top of it with a good accountant.  As a rule of thumb most tax plans give you up front with a smile and take away behind your back.

     Tony

Lots of truth in Tonys last line Imo. Tax breaks always appear to be a feel good thing that again imo never amount to a whloe lot of trickle down into economy. I know i never see a big gain in my personal bank acct due to any off them. And thus i spend no more money to spur the econmy. Think losening business reg where sensable would to more to promote growth than tax cuts. I would rather see gov concentrate on policing waste, overspending and pork barrel bills and reduce deficit. 

Dont get me wrong i dont want to pay anymore than i have to in taxes either, thats human nature.

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1 hour ago, oldtech said:

So, rich because they pay a lower rate is OK with you?

Why cant you pay that lower rate too?  Then you'd be rich too, right?

Why do we penalize labor over capital?  We already know that capital begets more money than labor ever will but yet we think that taxing labor more is a good idea.

Corporate profits are now going to drop to their same 20% rate too.  I guess they are more important than you.

As far as risk vs. reward... you can write off business losses on your taxes but not ordinary medical bills.  Currently you can write off very large medical bills but the new tax bill takes that away along with mortgage and student loan interest among other things.  Most people earning under $75,000 are actually going to see a tax HIKE!  And what rate cuts there are are going to end in 2025 but ONLY for lower quintile wage earners.

How about this???  Everybody pays the same rates?  You think that might be fare?

House version mortgage interest up to 500k loan still deductible. 

Senate version mortgage interest up to 1 million loan still deducctible. 

If you’re spending that kind of money on a home you have a dam good job. As far as medical, wouldn’t that be an incentive for people to actually take care of themselves? How many cancers obesity diabetes etc are self induced?

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4 hours ago, ihrondiesel said:

Actually I think something like a flat tax would be the best. 

As far as taxing labor and capital—the tax system is used by politicians to reward certain behaviors, thus a behavior with more inherent risk (capital) gets a better rate than a behavior with lower risk (labor).  I’m not saying it’s right but that is how it is set up. Maybe it would be better to let the market do the rewarding, not the tax system.  

And I can pay that lower tax rate on any income I have from those sources.

I agree everything should be a flat tax but I also agree with the fact that capital shouldn't be taxed as hard as labor and the reason I say that is without someone out there to risk their Capital to build a business to hire people people won't have jobs people that just take home a paycheck they don't stick their neck out on the line and get their head close to chopped off the risk it to build jobs for themselves or other people.

EVERYONE pays corporate taxes. If you purchase anything from a corporation their tax that they pay is passed on to their consumers. The less well off people are hurt more by these taxes than the rich. 

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