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   Fellas , Was sent champion D15Y  for my 806 L.P. with electronic ignition .

     Its not running as smooth as it should ( Everything has been done to this motor )

    Today, I decided to go to AC or Autolite  but my parts counter guy recommended   GNK AB6's says champion d15y subs to it .

          He says they sell so many of them to Ag that they are thinking of discontinuing  all the others. ?

     Looking for your opinions or experiences . Its a 301 L.P. engine in a 806.

      Tony

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I know Autolite recommends their 386 spark plug for the 6 cylinder IH gasoline engines. Not sure how they would be for a LP tractor.

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I used ngk ab 6 in the Farmall C S an super C , no complaints , I have no reason for the change , I wanted to try them and they were in stock at the store. 

Kind of confusing as to what to use today compared to the when the tractor used 40 years ago . Beside as the fellows suggest the fuel (gas) has change ,you got to rethink the combustion process to achieve a stochimetric combustion .

lp that something I don't know 

that being that I have no advice or experience with lp , but combustion effeicncy should be very similar I say try them , put a vacuum gage on it and retune 

 good luck 👀🚜🏃🤓

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I have said this for 20 years  but get kicked for dis ing champion   which have been junk since the 80's when I kept 7 gassers running at the various farms  and got hourly calls cant  rake or bale tractor quit again    champion never spoke up

in the 00's found a new parts distributor   after I said what and why I wanted it stocked , we had the discussion where he replied 90% of customers have problems and computer has no answers,champion never cared to follow up

found and went thru his mountains of old books  forward and back until we had autolites and the ngk  2-3 # of each for various applications   basically ALL they sold after

 they must be taking all the good stuff out of propane now......also...need free fertilizer to sell  at high profit

what we found is the cheap saltwater, 3 run, double split fuel doesnt burn hot enough (fouls plug)need a hotter spark  d-21 or higher worked for several years (nexttier)  to this day unless pulling a deep plow they barely make it to run temp on the gauge

a hotter plug did run the risk of piston damage with good fuel and heavy load    but was listed for lighter and show work

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I don't buy Champion plugs,PERIOD! I will clean the old ones and reuse them if nothing else is available.

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10 hours ago, boog said:

I know Autolite recommends their 386 spark plug for the 6 cylinder IH gasoline engines. Not sure how they would be for a LP tractor.

386 autolite will work.

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I stopped champion plugs 20 years ago when pulling. Would only get one pull down the track and they were $hit. Switched to auto lite and would run all season. Been using nkg and everything seems to run better imo. My calf cart won't even run with champion and barely on autolite so it gets nkg but they only last a year. Our local parts store stopped selling champion about 5 years ago. 

Jerry

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20 minutes ago, R Pope said:

I don't buy Champion plugs,PERIOD! I will clean the old ones and reuse them if nothing else is available.

This reminded me, Speaking of cleaning up Old plugs to use! Starting about 1965 every fall I'd buy new Champion D-16, then D-15Y plugs, and install them in the '39 H, in '68 started installing the plugs plus new points/condensor in Super H. The old plugs got put in an empty coffee can for safe keeping Just in Case. Dad bought some AC plugs and put them in the M one fall, not sure of the number. M had to run every weekend to grind corn, and move snow as required.  The Super H and a log chain was the Starting Aid, it always started if needed.   One weekday when I was at school, the M wouldn't start, M was still 6V, Dad put the battery charger on it, was only a 5 amp charger, didn't have a booster back then. Dad hunted up my coffee can, cleaned up 4 D-16 Champion plugs that had been run 250 hours in the H/SH and spent a year or three in a coffee can covered with dust and dirt and mouse nests. After cleaning them up good he put them in the M in place of the new AC plugs he'd installed a month or two before.  The M started on the second revolution.

About 1980 Dad bought two Super M's at an auction down around St. Louis. Had Jerry Ruhnow, owner of Ace in the Hole Pro Stock pulling tractor haul them home. Dad sold one to pay the delivery cost, young neighbor bought the Stage II with live hyd etc and left Dad with the Stage I.  About 2-3 months later the guy calls, "That Super M won't start!"  So Dad grabs his tune-up bag, heads over to the guys farm. Tractor has new AC plugs, and Farm&Fleet off brand cap, rotor, plug wires, points & condensor. Dad goes in to the IH dealer in town, when they still had one, 4 new D-15Y plugs, IH points, IH condensor, IH cap, IH rotor, and new copper core wires.  Went back to the shed with the Super M, installed everything, put the old junk in the bag, starts the tractor up, drives it up by the house, leaves it idling, and had the guy write him a check for the parts. Dad hands him the bag of cheap parts that were nearly new and told the young guy, "You should throw these away..."

My '51 M has new, about 11 year old D-18Y plugs in it. I ran the M a lot last year, loaded up about 50 cubic yards of brush,  put about 15 gallons of gas thru it in 2-3 days. Never missed a beat.  Tractor has 12V ignition, points/cond. Pertronix copper wire plug wires.  My Super H also 12V,  D-15Y plugs and IH points/cond. that were installed during the Reagan administration, Accel copper core wires. It starts, idles for a few minutes, pushes snow at 1000-1200 rpm in low gear for a half hour and goes back in the shop and waits for the next snow fall in winter.  Old stale 2-stroke gas/oil mix gets dumped in either Farmall's gas tank, doesn't seem to effect the way they run.

Only time I've had a Champion plug foul out was in an old Kohler K-161 or 181, not sure which it is. The Cub Cadet it was in was always run just above idle grading dirt, or snow/ice.  A J8C lasted every bit as long as the NGK or AC plugs I'd install in it.  I would NEVER use an Autolite plug. They make Motorcraft plugs. I bought a brand new '87 F-150 with 300-6. Truck had 15,000 miles and just over 2 yrs old, bought new Champion plugs for it. Think it was #5 cylinder had a big chunk broke out of center insulator.  Don't know when or how it happened but would never consider using an Autolite or Motorcraft plug ever.

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      Thank You guys .

           In old days I used D16's on everything with no problems.

       Then from about 1977 forward we Farmed with all diesel , never thought about plugs much.

         Started these restorations back in 2005 and every time I ordered plugs along with my protronix  ignition & wires I was sent A C 3116's.

        Of the 10 propane & gas restorations only had problems with three  so called hot Coils.  Have had three new Coils be bad when hot or pulled down on Dyno.

         In this case I am not sure if its Coil , Plugs, or Regulator.  Today Bob and I will start process of elimination .  First we will replace plugs NGK AB 6, if not perfect ,then we'll replace Coil, If still not happy then attention will go to propane regulator & carb . They were both rebuilt by Welters Equipment ,they have done all 5 of my propane  regulators & Carbs, never any problems.

       As for engine If you follow Restorations page , you'll see everything that's been done . We have run valves three times , we have  Re- torqued head  twice  after run ins'  Distributor is rebuilt and we've been using the timing light for setting .  As apposed to some others when we just use ear method.

    Will let you guys know what happens today.

        Tony

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In the late '80s I was road racing, most everyone I knew was using NGK and changing them frequently. Guys with deep pockets it was every race weekend.

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I worked in a parts store for many years, I saw more new champion plugs with defects than any other, no threads, center missing, and so on. Most customers that cared about what they used would refuse champions due to fouling issues with them. I think the quality of champion has went down hill in resent years, But I have found that they always seemed to do best  in hot running air cooled engines like mowers because they do tend to get fuel fouled easier than other brands. If your engine it in good condition they work fine, If you have one that runs rich, I would use Autolite. I know IH had some kind of love affair going on with champion, but I never liked them

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I run a slightly hotter plugs on LP engines than the plug recommended for gasoline.

I tend to run champions but have good luck with all brands.  I will run one set of plugs in my LP irrigation engine may through aug for my rice then run it some in the fall/winter for ducks.  I replace them in the spring just because.

Good Luck diagnosing your problem.

Thx-Ace

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Champion D15Y plugs will not work in the IH tractors. Replace them with a D16 for heavy use or higher compression engine, or D21 for light use.

Greg

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      Well Guys.

         Plugs, Coil, Wires made no difference.

           Engine is sounding worse the more time I put on it.

        Next on the agenda will be to re-run valves again and check valve train. Then replace L.P. regulator.

          Wonder if this is possible ? May try it any way and that is ; Putting a gas carb on it and feed it with a nurse can to try to isolate problem. See if it runs better on gas then propane , Then we know its a fuel problem.

    Another question ; Anyone know if there are older engine monitors available that would monitor engine functions with out a computer ? I searched internet but everything I find is basically to monitor engine codes and plug into computers.

  This engine has been a stomper !

          Tony

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Sorry to hear that nice LP tractor is still giving you grief 

Get some autolite plugs Tony. Unless you plan on working it hard a warmer plug may be needed( more so with LPG ). I know on the LP forklifts I used to service years ago plugs ,leads and caps were always being replaced a lot sooner than the gas machines.

 I now run autolite plugs in my old tractors after trying the NGK AB 6 plugs and found they were no better than the D16 Champion plugs for fowling. So far have had no issues . The NGk AB6 would probably be okay if my tractors were put into some hard work but not hot enough for parading. 

Marty,NZ

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Hopefully you get it figured out tony. Don't give up on it. You replaced points with electronic? That eliminates the points and condenser. You say it misses at idle I would suspect vacuum leak or valves sticking in guides or something in that area. If you are worried about regulator or mixer/carb you could feed propane into throats of carb with torch hose and regulate it with tank valve that would eliminate both pieces there. You can change plugs but they usually foul after running a while and not getting warm enough to clean up. Good luck with it. I would check distributor for worn advance weights also. We don't use many gas engines now but from using them day and out for years we always ran champion plugs in them probably about 100,000 hrs on  super ms , 2 cylinder Deere's and gas engine swathers. Up until 2008 we used to run a super m for main loader tractor. It got ran a couple hours a day every day of year. And none of the engines were never switched to electronic. We always ran points if points were bad run them on Emory cloth reuse them for another year.another thing is plug wires. Tractors like steel core wires bent over the end so the tips touch wire. Oh the old days of messing with gas engines. Good luck with it tony. PS a lot of neighbors would run 503  301 engine gas combines here. During harvest any lean condition would burn valves . On a rainy day or at night we would pull head grind valves replace burned one with used one out of 5 gal bucket of valves and they would be going again next day. Used to take about 3 hrs on and off and running again. Like I said good ole days.

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8 hours ago, tony in ca. said:

      Well Guys.

         Plugs, Coil, Wires made no difference.

           Engine is sounding worse the more time I put on it.

        Next on the agenda will be to re-run valves again and check valve train. Then replace L.P. regulator.

          Wonder if this is possible ? May try it any way and that is ; Putting a gas carb on it and feed it with a nurse can to try to isolate problem. See if it runs better on gas then propane , Then we know its a fuel problem.

    Another question ; Anyone know if there are older engine monitors available that would monitor engine functions with out a computer ? I searched internet but everything I find is basically to monitor engine codes and plug into computers.

  This engine has been a stomper !

          Tony

What are you looking for an oscilloscope to measure and read spark/dwell?

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9 hours ago, lussetto said:

Champion D15Y plugs will not work in the IH tractors. Replace them with a D16 for heavy use or higher compression engine, or D21 for light use.

Greg

Yep, Nope!  My Farmall Super H is Not an IH?  but HAS had Champion D-15Y plugs since 1969.  Really, W** are you talking about?

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On 11/8/2017 at 9:17 AM, tony in ca. said:

      Thank You guys .

           In old days I used D16's on everything with no problems.

       Then from about 1977 forward we Farmed with all diesel , never thought about plugs much.

         Started these restorations back in 2005 and every time I ordered plugs along with my protronix  ignition & wires I was sent A C 3116's.

        Of the 10 propane & gas restorations only had problems with three  so called hot Coils.  Have had three new Coils be bad when hot or pulled down on Dyno.

         In this case I am not sure if its Coil , Plugs, or Regulator.  Today Bob and I will start process of elimination .  First we will replace plugs NGK AB 6, if not perfect ,then we'll replace Coil, If still not happy then attention will go to propane regulator & carb . They were both rebuilt by Welters Equipment ,they have done all 5 of my propane  regulators & Carbs, never any problems.

       As for engine If you follow Restorations page , you'll see everything that's been done . We have run valves three times , we have  Re- torqued head  twice  after run ins'  Distributor is rebuilt and we've been using the timing light for setting .  As apposed to some others when we just use ear method.

    Will let you guys know what happens today.

        Tony

Look for a SUN Engine Analyser,  ocilliscope for checking spark voltage to each plug,   It was The Ultimate tune-up tool back in the 1960's & '70's.

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15 minutes ago, DOCTOR EVIL said:

Look for a SUN Engine Analyser,  ocilliscope for checking spark voltage to each plug,   It was The Ultimate tune-up tool back in the 1960's & '70's.

  Thank You ,that's what I am looking for !

    Could not remember the name ,Thank You !   

       I think its the way to track this down.

       Hate to say this out loud but its starting to sound like it did after the first re-build .

             The first time around machine shop did all work & provided parts. We built engine. This time They re-did all the work provided parts and built the motor themselves supposedly mic everything going in.  They were warned that reliance parts can be iffy and I specifically asked them to re- mic the cam.  They are noted as the longest operating & best machine shop in town.

        I am starting to shake in my boots.

     Tony

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 Just buy Danny Anderson a round trip ticket and a room for one night. Bet he can get'er going right in no time at all.  :-)

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 A quick lesson on heat range for spark plugs. The difference in heat range isn't hotter spark or anything like that. It is length of porcelain and inside of plug affecting transfer of combustion heat to head and water jacket. The only times hotter plugs will ruin an engine is in racing applications ( everyone on here tunes drag cars or NASCAR ) and high temp constant work like summer time truck engines or combine engines running lean. The hotter plugs tend to not foul as easy they do not provide hotter spark just retain heat more. Now that said they make resistor plugs that will provide more spark but usually take more than points to fire them. The quickest way to burn a valve is lean out your engine( vacuum leak) or main jet to lean.. The quickest way to burn a hole in a piston is advance timing and the biggest is run a bad plug wire under load. The sun engine analyser would work but you can do the same by pulling plug wires to find skip , ether for vacuum Leak and just old patience. Seen many blown truck engines and 99% were operator involved.  Good luck on it tony. To nice of tractor not to keep it going a little patience some thought on the subject and elbow grease will get here going. Got to say had a hough pay loader with the smaller engine 240 or there not the 260 size gas. The head had been shaved to many times and I put rings and bearings in it owner had head shaved again but pistons hit the top of head when running. I solved that problem by filing pistons down a bit unscientific like after head removal. That engine was always tough to tune it should have run high octane gas because of the not intended increase. Seen a lot of unsolvable stuff it gets straightened out eventually.

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I see the Sun testers once in a while on sale bills.  They usually go cheap because no one knows if they still work.  Might find an old hot rod shop that has one out there?

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29 minutes ago, tony in ca. said:

  Thank You ,that's what I am looking for !

    Could not remember the name ,Thank You !   

       I think its the way to track this down.

       Hate to say this out loud but its starting to sound like it did after the first re-build .

             The first time around machine shop did all work & provided parts. We built engine. This time They re-did all the work provided parts and built the motor themselves supposedly mic everything going in.  They were warned that reliance parts can be iffy and I specifically asked them to re- mic the cam.  They are noted as the longest operating & best machine shop in town.

        I am starting to shake in my boots.

     Tony

We had a local Pontiac dealer in Dad's old home town. They were Dad's Go To shop if something wasn't running right, They had a big Sun Analyser.  About Thanksgiving '76 I order out my new '77 Firebird from them.  Fast forward 2-3 years and car has a stumble and intermitant miss that new distributor rotor, plugs, wires didn't fix. Take the car to them one day I had off.  The owner himself put my car on the scope. Car was my first HEI car, coil in the dist. cap.  It was clear to him by the scope that my car had spark jumping to ground, we just had to find it.  It was under the coil, spark was jumping to the distributor shaft.

Dad had something that had all the local guys stumped, think it was on the 292 Y-block in Dad's '56 F-350 pickup. An hour or so on that Sun machine in the Pontiac shop fixed it. Sharp technician could fix the hardest to find problems.

Make sure you get the manual with the machine.

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25 minutes ago, DOCTOR EVIL said:

We had a local Pontiac dealer in Dad's old home town. They were Dad's Go To shop if something wasn't running right, They had a big Sun Analyser.  About Thanksgiving '76 I order out my new '77 Firebird from them.  Fast forward 2-3 years and car has a stumble and intermitant miss that new distributor rotor, plugs, wires didn't fix. Take the car to them one day I had off.  The owner himself put my car on the scope. Car was my first HEI car, coil in the dist. cap.  It was clear to him by the scope that my car had spark jumping to ground, we just had to find it.  It was under the coil, spark was jumping to the distributor shaft.

Dad had something that had all the local guys stumped, think it was on the 292 Y-block in Dad's '56 F-350 pickup. An hour or so on that Sun machine in the Pontiac shop fixed it. Sharp technician could fix the hardest to find problems.

Make sure you get the manual with the machine.

The rotor is under the coil between dist shaft.  If rotor was shorted obvious carbon line should have been there.so Obviously someone had changed your cap once already then. This didn't start to show up until later on with Chinese caps they were thinner and stock coil screws would protrude faintly through cap and cause problems. In 78 or 9 should have been American made parts yet so cap rotor quality should have been equal to oem parts. Another interesting story on new chevy dist. Our auto mech instructor in high school was telling us about road trip he and his buddy had taken. Got a 100 miles away car quit and no money no available parts with for car repair. They found a chevy dealer closed for weekend . They therefore liberated a distributor out of a new chevy car to replace the points on theirs. New car got sold with old distributor and non working points installed or eventually new points. You never know what was done to your new car before you bought it. My dad always talks of high school classmates that would borrow a 3 speed trans out of new car lot at night. 20 minutes and they had them out in 1958. The sun analyzer would show you spark and compression affecting spark . Plug raster pattern I think they called it but same can be done with simple hard work.

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