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Amo

Farm subsidy programs

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So I posted a topic on a Facebook forum that delt with harvest price on MPCI crop insurance.  I gave the conventional and organic prices.  I don't think most ag operators like the government messing around in their business.  Thing is the row crop man is so used to now ARC or PLC, subsidised crop insurance premiums, young farmer loans, etc that I think most just assume it's free money.  If I don't take it somebody else will.  Which is true, but does all of this stuff need to be subsidised?

So in discussing some aspects of organic farming the other person mentioned that there's a grant to help pay for certification.  Which there's a difference between subsidy and grant.  My point is, isn't the whole reason organic has a higher price is because it's a more expensive crop to raise?  

Unless there's a natural disaster livestock guys don't get in FSA pocket that bad.  I'm not like some that will complain and moan about farm programs.  Seriously though I thought a grant for the certification was BS

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I don't know about it being more expensive to raise. I know a couple of organic growers who brag about how much less it cost them to raise a crop than a "chemical farmer" as they say. What sets the price difference is supply and demand. Right now there is a growing demand for organic foods. May be a niche market or just a fad, who knows?

Rick

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My neighbor was a small organic operation, He got fed up with all the paperwork crap. He sells as no spray then no paper work, so many organic chemicals out there now some as deadly as conventional it's a joke. If mommy with her 4 kids paying big money for the organic stuff really new the deal.    Yes I know there are organic guys that are the real deal.

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21 minutes ago, 806 man said:

    Yes I know there are organic guys that are the real deal.

Very true! Same thing with the ones around here, some have switched over to "sustainable" others no chemicals.....one who is organic (honest organic, uses no chemicals) with about 30 acres is making a go of it but man he's working his backside off from thaw to freeze up. He sells sheep, chickens, eggs and veggies. Some of his customers are 150 or so miles away.

 

Rick

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I don't know if we have plc arc it is all very confusing the first 2 years really paid well this year about 2 bucks an acre,  was good in the beginning. just like the dairy program that was a bust, don't know if they ever paid out even the premium.

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On 11/3/2017 at 10:31 PM, Amo said:

 

On the Facebook page one person commented the only time he made money was 2012.  They get more per bushel. 

Some do an excellent job.  Others you can't tell if it's beans or pig weed.  I think it's like any other get rich quick fad, everyone but the producer makes money.  Like organic for instance you have to be certified with a plan, certain seed, special fertilizer, etc.  Doin crop insurance you see more bad than good.  I think most of those would be more profitable using round up.  I guess it kinda rubbed me that we have to help them with a grant when they're getting a $4 premium per bushel.  If they yield half as much that's their problem.  Mostly due to poor management practice, or not knowing how to farm.  So why do we have to subsidise an ignorant farmer?  Why do we subsidise any farmer?

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Why do we subsidize the oil industry? Or any thing else we do.....

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2 hours ago, Amo said:

On the Facebook page one person commented the only time he made money was 2012.  They get more per bushel. 

Some do an excellent job.  Others you can't tell if it's beans or pig weed.  I think it's like any other get rich quick fad, everyone but the producer makes money.  Like organic for instance you have to be certified with a plan, certain seed, special fertilizer, etc.  Doin crop insurance you see more bad than good.  I think most of those would be more profitable using round up.  I guess it kinda rubbed me that we have to help them with a grant when they're getting a $4 premium per bushel.  If they yield half as much that's their problem.  Mostly due to poor management practice, or not knowing how to farm.  So why do we have to subsidise an ignorant farmer?  Why do we subsidise any farmer?

I don't know if I'd call it a fad. It's been around for years and is picking up steam. I'd say more of a niche market. Don't get me wrong. I DO NOT buy organic. Just stating facts.

Some make it others don't. I think most "new" folks are people from the suburbs who are just into that stuff. They get a little money and decide to do a "green acres". They don't know and don't understand what it takes in man-hours to make it work and that new equipment, nice newer cars and a nice house  are not going to come from 40 acres.

 

Rick

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Oh now come on, you should be able to make a fortune off of 40 acres...that's a RANCH!!!! There are vids all over youtube of people making a hundred thousand off a half acre. :lol:

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I agree on it being a niche market.  Just saying things come and go.

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39 minutes ago, Birdman said:

Oh now come on, you should be able to make a fortune off of 40 acres...that's a RANCH!!!! There are vids all over youtube of people making a hundred thousand off a half acre. :lol:

Yea but in most states the crops that 100K are illegal!:lol:

 

Rick

 

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On 11/4/2017 at 8:32 AM, oldtanker said:

I don't know about it being more expensive to raise. I know a couple of organic growers who brag about how much less it cost them to raise a crop than a "chemical farmer" as they say. What sets the price difference is supply and demand. Right now there is a growing demand for organic foods. May be a niche market or just a fad, who knows?

Rick

Ive actually made that point in a slightly different way.

Consider this...  If nobody used all the chemicals and GMOs yield would be less, right?  Well, wouldnt that then raise prices?  What is the cost of oversupply with these things?  Whats the point of producing more and enjoying it less?

Who really benefits from all of that? 

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Just now, oldtech said:

Ive actually made that point in a slightly different way.

Consider this...  If nobody used all the chemicals and GMOs yield would be less, right?  Well, wouldnt that then raise prices?  What is the cost of oversupply with these things?  Whats the point of producing more and enjoying it less?

Who really benefits from all of that? 

The seed and chemical companies.........

RIck

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As for subsidies, I took an insurance course a while back because I was being recruited to open an office here.

What I learned about programs like Federal crop and flood insurance is that it is not so much subsidized as backed up in the event of a major loss.  Private insurance companies would not be able to withstand the losses if we have a major drought or flood, especially the more regional ones so the Feds step in and agree to absorb the losses.  So regular agents write the policies and draw a small commission but the policies are actually backed by the government in the event of catastrophic loss.  I dont have a problem with that.

Other subsidies are another matter.

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13 minutes ago, oldtanker said:

The seed and chemical companies.........

RIck

There ya go.

Lately I'm all about cutting out the profit eaters from the producers even if it means losing a few bu/ac (which isn't necessarily a must). I wonder where we'd have been at today if we'd have focused on developing OP varieties rather than hybrids whose sole point was to make producers dependent on an annual input of purchased seed. Also focus on companion crops and natural soil health vs the chemical companies that sprang up from chemical weapons mfg after WWII to make use of the resources developed. It's amazing to see how healthy soil changes things vs burnt out soil that's dependent on chemical inputs.

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21 minutes ago, oldtanker said:

The seed and chemical companies.........

RIck

Pretty much!  Ive often said that the only ones making money off of farming are those who are selling stuff TO the farmers and not the farmers themselves...

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1 hour ago, oldtech said:

Pretty much!  Ive often said that the only ones making money off of farming are those who are selling stuff TO the farmers and not the farmers themselves...

Shocked that the miserable wanna be farmers are complaining of course you couldn't make it farming

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Just now, Deerefarmer said:

Shocked that the miserable wanna be farmers are complaining of course you couldn't make it farming

How nice!  How many brothers do I have in that?  How many farm steads including Id guess any number of your relatives places standing empty and run by large corporate farms?  Are they all stupid and incompetent?  Or do you think it had more to do with thin margins created by gross over production?

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12 minutes ago, oldtech said:

How nice!  How many brothers do I have in that?  How many farm steads including Id guess any number of your relatives places standing empty and run by large corporate farms?  Are they all stupid and incompetent?  Or do you think it had more to do with thin margins created by gross over production?

I think you are mistaken, the majority of the “corporate mega farms” you speak of are large family ones incorporated for tax and business purposes as many times dad started it and they got larger as the sons joined operation.

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My family is still in business 

14 minutes ago, oldtech said:

How nice!  How many brothers do I have in that?  How many farm steads including Id guess any number of your relatives places standing empty and run by large corporate farms?  Are they all stupid and incompetent?  Or do you think it had more to do with thin margins created by gross over production?

I just believe your bitter because you have an excuse for everything 

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All the large farms in my area are ran by families of many generations who were able to manage the 80s farm crisis

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The one's that have gotten big here just did a good job managing their inputs vs their yields and managing their money. Some made good investments, one went to CA and came back suspiciously wealthy (figure that one out). Grain commodity prices have been pretty good the last decade so I'm not sure what this talk is about thin margins from gross overproduction.

There's a lot to be said for the comment about the one's that survived the ag crash too. They survived and found themselves in decent condition in a very strong buyers market because everyone else was broke. Land prices went from $3K per acre to $300 and they had a lot of equity in the upswing.

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13 minutes ago, jass1660 said:

I think you are mistaken, the majority of the “corporate mega farms” you speak of are large family ones incorporated for tax and business purposes as many times dad started it and they got larger as the sons joined operation.

Yeah yeah...

And Kohler Company is just a little family run business too I guess.  Herb would probably try to tell me that too.

Fact is that there are about the same number of people involved in agriculture here as there were when I was farming.  Only now most of them are Mexican imports that hardly own their cars and the clothes on their backs and rely on getting their health care free when they go to the ER and then skip on their bills.

We maybe didnt get rich on the farm but we paid our insurance and at the end of the day we owned the place and werent a burden on the local resources.  I call that a subsidy, dont you?

And Id hardly call what these "families" do as "owning" anything.  Its all highly leveraged and off site investors and banks pretty much dictate how they are run.

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17 minutes ago, Deerefarmer said:

All the large farms in my area are ran by families of many generations who were able to manage the 80s farm crisis

In other words, they inherited it.  Some of us didnt choose the right parents.

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I know quite a few successful people that went broke once farming or were within a hairs width of doing so. They were able to pull themselves out of it by being creative and changing how they did things rather than continuing to do the same thing that broke them and expecting things to turn around.

 

It's not any more of a crime to be lucky enough to inherit wealth than it is to go broke farming. We're all lucky and privileged in one way or another and we can all find things to complain about and feel victimized over.

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