pirlbeck

Case-IH 5130 kicking our butt- suggestions needed

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Sorry about the length of this.  

Tractor is a 5130 SN-JJF1015220.

I have a customers 5130 that is giving us an absolute fit. Customer bought tractor used and it has had these problems since he purchased it. Selling dealer worked on it without repairing the problem.
 
Some of the symptoms are.
 
At times it will work pretty decent and then the next time you jump in it and it will act up pretty regularly and throw different codes. I have been taking a note pad with me a writing down the problems/scenario as they happen.
 
There may be some redundancy to this list as it is several different lists and notes combined.
 
Sometimes, at start up, the trans light will flash on for 1-2 seconds and then go off. When pushing the clutch in trans light would flash constantly, but the tractor would still move. When the power shift lever was moved the tractor would not change speeds. It only seems to do this on startup and the only way to make it work correctly is to turn the tractor off and restart it.

Tractor stopped moving, PS was in 1st speed and was not recently shifted, depressed clutch - 2 Flashes

Quit moving when shifted from 1 to 2, no light and no flashes when clutch was depressed.

Light lite up for a little bit and went out, tractor kept moving.

Quit moving after 1 to 2 shift, no light on and no flash codes, had to shut down and restart.

Other codes we have seen.

2 flashes- after a 1-2 shift

4 flashes after a 3-4 shift

4 flashes after a 2-1 shift.

Transmission will go into neutral, some times the trans fault lamp will be lite and sometimes it will not come on.
 
Usually, when trans fault light comes on, depressing the clutch will get it to blink the fault codes and the light will reset with the clutch pedal and the tractor will then move. Some of the flash codes we have seen are 2 flashed, 3 flashes, 4 flashes, 5 flashes and flash constantly.
 
Sometimes the tractor will quit moving and the light would not be on and you would have to stop and restart the tractor to get it to move. Sometimes it would require multiple restarts before it would move.
 
Sometimes tractor would quit moving and the light would flash constantly, but would reset with the clutch pedal.
 
At least once tractor started coasting for a little while when on the road but kicked back in and then worked OK the rest of the day in the field.
 
Occasionally, when idling the tractor, usually at cooler temps when warming the tractor up, it would just choke the engine, like an errant clutch pack was being randomly applied.
 
What we have check or tried.
 
Tested and adjusted all hyd and powershift pressures to specs. Low standby set to 580 PSI, hi pressure set to 2800PSI, steering set to 2500PSI
 
Tested trans pressure switches and replaced one switch.
 
Checked and cleaned all grounds multiple times..
 
Ohm tested all harness wires per service manual.
 
Remove complete transmission harness, removed loom cover and inspected all wires for defects, Ohm tested all wires again. Inspected all terminals and pins
 
Substituted a different powershift controller and a different shift lever controller. These were used from a salvage yard, but the problems pretty much stayed the same.
 
Made sure the diode suppressed relays were in the proper location. Made sure all relays were properly seated and zip tied them in.
 
Tested clutch pedal switch.
 
Tested supply voltage to the trans controller.
 
We have spent HOURS testing and driving this thing to try and come up with some sort of pattern and there is nothing consistent.
 
Also have talked to CASEIHTECH from this board (he has been great....very helpful) a number of times and we checked and tested everything he has suggested. 
 
We have a ton of non-billed hours in this thing, but at this point I don' care, I just want to get it fixed for the customer.
 
Anyone run into anything similar? All help greatly appreciated.
 
Thanks!
 
 

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I am sorry for your frustrations. I can't help you with your problems but I have had similar issues with the maxxum series especially above 5,000 hours it got worse for us

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Hi pirlbeck, sorry to hear about the frustration you are having.

just a thought,....can you put pressure gauges into each individual p/s pressure port and see if you are getting multiple clutches trying to engage at once......from memory there are access plugs on each p/s valve section............I'm wondering if you have a bad gasket or o'ring that is leaking pressure across the ports and trying to engage more than one clutch at a time......your comment about the engine "choking at idle" makes me wonder....( we once had an MX maxxum Try to engage 2 clutches and almost stall the tractor.......although I realise the valve setup is different).

Another thought......p/s solenoid o'Rings that are damaged could give similar issues I guess???

regards Heath,NZ

 

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I didn't get any details, but my brother was having random problems with his 5230 trying to engage two power shift gears at once.  8000+ hour machine.  The problem was with the power shift clutch packs themselves, apparently there was wear on shafts that was allowing pack pressure oil to get places it wasn't supposed to.  It was a problem that had all the symptoms of being electrical but was not.

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22 hours ago, Gearclash said:

I didn't get any details, but my brother was having random problems with his 5230 trying to engage two power shift gears at once.  8000+ hour machine.  The problem was with the power shift clutch packs themselves, apparently there was wear on shafts that was allowing pack pressure oil to get places it wasn't supposed to.  It was a problem that had all the symptoms of being electrical but was not.

You pretty much read my mind:lol:.....that was going to be my next suggestion if we found out there are two clutches trying to engage at once.

hopefully the pressure gauges will tell the story.

It makes sense that the pressure switches would be very erratic in their operation if the pressure was going to various places all at once.

naturally the controller would be goin nuts trying to deal with it all and the fault codes could be pretty random.

I once saw a Magnum burn out the odd/even clutches because of damage to the seal rings on the shaft.

hopefully we can sort this thing out.

I wonder if it has some wear inside the oil supply hubs at the front of each shaft and /or worn out seal rings ????

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Just had a NH TL70 thru the shop,   power shuttle ,  fwd/rev- Hi/lo,   To the best of my knowledge

the shuttle section was never opened up ,all kinds of odd codes ,  Symptom was would lose fwd drive due to low pressure

But not consistently , sometimes work perfect - other times no move,   Ended up being a missing snap ring (heavy duty 2.5" dia)

on the forward clutch hub assembly ,  It allowed the hub to thrust and eventually it wore enough clearance

for the shaft seals to come out of their respective bores and dump pressure ,

No pieces of snap ring anywhere

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OK, thanks for the help. We did have all of the solenoid valves out and inspected the o-rings and made sure they were not over torqued when installed. 

As far as monitoring each individual clutch pressure, the lock up and choking the engine happens so rarely that I am not sure we could catch it.

If the shaft seal rings had excessive leakage I figured the pressure would just be bled back to sump through the return porting on the non energized shift valve. This is something we may have to investigate further though.

Thanks again!

 

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Just a thought about the engine being choked, if two PS packs of sequential gears (say 2 and 3) engage at the same time, the engine will lug but not stall.  

Edit to ask, would the engine choke completely randomly or following a PS gear change?

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That tractor didn't come out of Kentucky?  By chance 

adding info.        I went and looked at one for my brother. Open station two wheel drive. 

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Gearclash, the engine choking was very random, and to my knowledge was never associated with a gear change.

Dannyredfan, I think the tractor was more local then KY, but I don;t know that for sure. Why, do you know of one with similar problems?

Thanks guys.

 

 

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13 hours ago, pirlbeck said:

Dannyredfan, I think the tractor was more local then KY, but I don;t know that for sure. Why, do you know of one with similar problems?

Yes my brother was interested in one  close to Columbia KY two wheel drive open station.  A small dealer/jockey had it. Looked at it was nice.   But would just quit sometimes then other times work all day .

Very much like you describe.        

Decided to pass on it  but always wandered what the problem was 

Ps.  I told him to buy it cause the guys on RP. Could get it fixed 👍😊 

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I had a little experience with those when they were new.   I learned enough about them to know I didn't want to know anymore.   Drive you nuts and the salesman standing there, well you went to school and should know what is wrong.   They have so many electrical components for different operations and every time you disengage one of them, like lifting or lowering the hitch, the de -energizing of the solenoid sends a voltage spike down the line and if there isn't a diode in that circuit, like there was not on the first ones, it would shut computer for power shift off.  Stray voltages due to defective diode , same thing.    I would permanently mount gauges in clutch pack circuits though and when it acts up, quick look.  

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I like Pete23 thoughts above.  This sure sounds like one of those "stray something" problems.  I have seen the lack of clipping diodes do all kinds of weird things on machinery.     I would check that every single solenoid has a functional clipping diode on it.    FOr general purpose testing of this:

  • Coil disconnected, power off
  • DVM on Diode check
  • Red lead on the ground return
  • Black lead on the 12V signal
  • You should read 3-700 ohms, and "open" when you switch the leads

That only works for coils that do not have the clipping diode built into the coil (thanks, Claas)....those are a PITA to test, because the coil resistance overpowers the test

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OK here is an update on this thing......a couple weeks ago we went out and swapped back in his original trans controller and shift lever controller so I could return the salvage yard "test" controllers, as they did not seem to correct the problems. When he tried to use it the other day (after we switched controllers) it acted up so much he was afraid to leave the yard with it. He also said it stalled the engine several times when he had it running. I went down to his place on Saturday and just like in the past nothing consistent and no real meaningful flash codes. It would sometimes stop moving and the light would flash constantly until you shut it down and re-started it and some times you would have to do this several times before it would even move. Sometimes it would move but the trans light would be on steady, but it would not shift speeds......it would just continue to drive in whatever speed it was in. The only thing that seemed to change anything was when I applied and released  the park brake lever it seemed like that made it work better. Until I did that, I though I was going to be stuck in the middle of his driveway. The park brake was not applied when the owner had parked it and until I applied and released it it was not messed with. The park brake warning switch and the system appears to be working normal as far as I can tell.....when you apply the park brake the dash warning light comes on and if you shift the range shifter into any gear the warning buzzer sounds. It did not stall the engine for me.

We are going to get it back to the shop in a week or two (after harvest) and play with it again. We are going to put 4 pressure gauges on it and maybe 4 LED lights wired into each shift solenoid power supply so we can see if the stalling of the engine is caused by an errant electrical signal or bu and internal oil supply problem. We tried putting some small bulbs in the solenoid circuit the last time it was in here, but standard (1895) bulbs were enough extra resistance that the controller thought it had a shorted solenoid coil.

Any one have any thoughts on the park brake seeming to change the way it acted or any other suggestions?And I still wonder about the controllers changing how it seemed to work, but I don't want to spend several thousand dollars just to experiment and find out that it did not change the problem.  

 

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1 hour ago, pirlbeck said:

 

 

Quote

Any one have any thoughts on the park brake seeming to change the way it acted or any other suggestions?And I still wonder about the controllers changing how it seemed to work, but I don't want to spend several thousand dollars just to experiment and find out that it did not change the problem.  

 

I can't hardly believe it would have anything to do with it we had a 5130 and two 5140s none of them were able to do anything with the park brake circuit to labor the engine . Now our case 621 wheel loader if the park brake light comes on and or the buzzer it will totally disengage your clutch pack say if you're moving along and you pull the park brake up it'll go right to neutral so it undoes your forward or reverse solenoid apparently on the wheel loader which is a lot smarter in my opinion

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23 minutes ago, bitty said:

 

I can't hardly believe it would have anything to do with it we had a 5130 and two 5140s none of them were able to do anything with the park brake circuit to labor the engine . Now our case 621 wheel loader if the park brake light comes on and or the buzzer it will totally disengage your clutch pack say if you're moving along and you pull the park brake up it'll go right to neutral so it undoes your forward or reverse solenoid apparently on the wheel loader which is a lot smarter in my opinion

I don't think the park brake had anything to do with laboring the engine, that was totally random and it acts like 2 different clutch packs are applying at the same time. The thing with the park brake is that after I applied and released it the tractor took off and moved normally. 

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11 hours ago, pirlbeck said:

I don't think the park brake had anything to do with laboring the engine, that was totally random and it acts like 2 different clutch packs are applying at the same time. The thing with the park brake is that after I applied and released it the tractor took off and moved normally. 

Boy, would it be nice to know if this is an electrical problem or a hydraulic problem.  I think that you are on the right track with the LED indicator lights.  The fact that the parking brake application "clears" the fault makes me think that dropping pressure via the parking brake application and release goes along with the worn clutch pack(s) hypothesis.   Keep us posted.  I am looking at a neighbor's 5140 currently that only operates in 1st.  Upon shifting to second it pulls for two seconds, then cuts out.  I need to get back to it to check out the pressure switches.

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I can't think of any reason why the park brake should affect the powershift clutch packs unless its errant electrical signals.  If everything is working normally on these tractors it is possible to  drive them with the park brake applied but the warning buzzer should be screaming its head off and the lights on the dash should be on.

 

Is it possible that the force of the park brake affects the mechanicals of the clutch packs and or the shafts they are on that they seal properly?

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The parking brake sends a ground to instrument cluster, if parking brake has anything to do with it I would start thinking poor / bad ground. Pat has been over this tractor from one end to the other. I think the idea of installing a gauge in each clutch along with a light to each solenoid is a good idea. 

The sealing rings on the clutch shafts can / will cause 2 gears to engage together, but it would have to be 1&3 or 2&4 as they are on same shaft. To my knowledge this has been checked already......there is a ground wire from right rear cab mount to the operators station have seen these cause problems. 

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I have nothing to add to this but stupidity, but on what C/IH Tech just said, are the ground wires confirmed good?  We had an on/off issue with my cat skidsteer where some times you would kill it and everything was dead.  Open the rear door, look around, touch things, shut it and it would work fine.  Didn't occur all the time or often.  One day my brother was here and I was messing with it when it quit, he grabbed the jumpers out of the service truck and went from the battery ground to cab frame...............Started right up.  So we pulled the ground to the cab to test it.  Worked, I was going to put it back and he said wait a minute, he twisted it up and we tried it, no continuity.  Straightened it and it was fine, twisted it and the same, no good.  Made a new cable and never had an issue since.  

 

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Have had this problem before  replaced pressure switches it solved my problem.

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