Dax DeCelle

Removing Roosa Master pump

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Injpumped    0

easy to find tdc #1 by pulling #1 glow plug, since a 606 is basically a 460 engine right? On the compression stroke, you will hiss air out of the glow plug hole as it comes up to tdc. If this guy has been working on pumps for 50 years, he will know what he is doing to re-install it.

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Dax DeCelle    0

Yes he took the shaft back with him. He insists on that. 

I put the pointer back on TDC and The dot on the pump gear is at about 5 o'clock, where it was when I knew it was TDC on #1. 

 

His problem is that his eyes are failing him. He's 75 after all. He has an eye surgery next Thursday, so I'm hoping I hear from him before that. He said he doesn't use a test stand at his home shop, but he is going to take my pump to his friend that has a test stand and make sure it's right. Probably one of the places he used to work. 

 

As for reinstalling it, he might come back, but I'd rather do it myself, now that I know for sure I had it right and it was the pump that was faulty. 

 

Thank you all for your help and advice. I truly appreciate it. 

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Dax DeCelle    0

The pump man called me Saturday evening and said, "I hate to tell you this, but there is nothing wrong with your pump. My buddy put it on his test stand and it performed perfectly." I said, "ok, then why wouldn't it prime up?" He suggested I didn't have enough fuel pressure. I was trying before with 5 gallons in the tank. I went and got my pump, brought it home, added 5 more gallons of fuel and another battery, so I'd have two working together. That did the trick. I got the pump primed up and it fired up nicely. I had the timing retarded a bit so it smoked terribly, but I made the adjustments and now it runs great. However, I still have more smoke than I would like. Un burnt fuel smoke. I have the crankshaft 3* advanced and the pump timed to that. It runs great at all speeds, but isn't burning all the fuel just right. Do I need to try and advance to 5* and see if it clears up? 

 

Thanks again for the help. 

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pete23    0

Having it on a test stand filled the pumping plungers and probably helped as much or more than the added fuel.  Smoke, what color?  If white it would be late timing or low compression.  Black would be poor injection nozzles or air restriction.   I am going to assume, since they had it on a test stand that the automatic advance was adjusted so that should not be the problem with smoke.  However, assuming is dangerous. 

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Dax DeCelle    0

White smoke. Smells of unburnt fuel. Compression is good. Didn't smoke before I took the pump off for rebuild. 

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pete23    0

Get a window on the pump to address the automatic advance is working.  It sounds like it is not.  Advancing the static timing may very well cure the white smoke but that is absolutely the wrong way of going about doing it until you verify advance is adjusted properly because then the timing will be wrong under a load where it is most important. 

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You can see what it looks at here at about 2:50. The only one I found was in John Deere tools. It is the same, but the idea of JD?

 

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Dax DeCelle    0

Yes,  they are discussed and pictured in the I&T manual. Where can I find one?

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pete23    0
1 hour ago, Dax DeCelle said:

Yes,  they are discussed and pictured in the I&T manual. Where can I find one?

Had a post all typed up and zip, hit the wrong key .   Anyway, the window you need is in my pickup but that won't help you. A diesel repair shop should have one to sell and all IH, Deere, and Acco dealers should have on in their tools. Don't know if they will loan them out, I used to .   That pump has a load advance which means it advances at no load and retards under load.  It should advance two marks on window at all engine speeds but not advance at all at cranking speed.  It is best to adjust when on a dynamometer but can be done without. With engine running at low idle speed,  Turn in adjusting stud on governor guide just enough to fully advance it the two marks , then run at full throttle and see if still advanced or needs a little more adjustment. Then I  idle engine, pull throttle to full open right at the pump and watch timing mark. It should retard close to one full mark and then snap right back to full advance.  When it does this you are pretty close to right on.  Normally takes very little screwing on stud but being it was apart it may be way off adjustment. 

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Dax DeCelle    0

Is it possible that if the guide stud has been screwed in too far, it would cause the white smoke at all rpms? I hope to find a window and figure all this out.

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pete23    0
56 minutes ago, Dax DeCelle said:

Is it possible that if the guide stud has been screwed in too far, it would cause the white smoke at all rpms? I hope to find a window and figure all this out.

Turning guide stud in too far would cause it to be advanced at all speeds and loads so that would not be cause of white smoke.  What the guide stud does is there is a bevel on guide stud that meets and matches the bevel on top of metering valve. There is a slot on metering valve that the farther down it is pushed down by guide stud the more fuel volume  from primary pump is directed to the load advance.  Do you have the static timing set at 3 degrees before top dead center.  That engine is really picky.   Late timing is what causes the white smoke but like I said, over advancing static timing to over come white smoke without knowing that the load advance is working properly is notttttttttt good.  I mentioned fuel volume above so of course low primary fuel pressure would cause poor advance operation.  

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Dax DeCelle    0

I have a mess is what I have. I am so frustrated and discouraged. I am so embarrassed at this whole ordeal. I just need help and I'm embarrassed to call the pump man again. 

I have the crankshaft pulley at 3 degrees before TDC. I have the pump timed to that. 

Now, here is the problem. When he gave me the pump back, he said, "when you get it running, at WOT with no load, it may not run smoothly. If so, turn the guide stud in just a tiny bit until it runs smoothly." So when I first got it running, I had it retarded. It smoked terribly and ran rough at WOT. I started turning the guide stud inward to compensate. I kept turning it in trying to get it to run smoothly. Then I called him and he said it was retarded. I corrected the timing and it ran much better and the smoke decreased. But it only decreased, it didn't quit all together. Now it smokes terribly again. I have the guide stud way out of adjustment and I don't know how to get it right or if that is my problem. I feel like an idiot. The pump man had eye surgery yesterday and I don't want to bother him now. 

I just wish I could get it to run right. Thank you all for your help. 

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beekeep15    0

don't feel to bad I  had a 400 diesel  I put new ta in and had to split it 3 times before I got it to hold oil, kept rolling the oil seal  finally got it right

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Dax DeCelle    0

Thanks for the optimism. I need it.

For anyone interested in watching this train wreck, I just took the pump back to the pump man again. He suggested putting it back on the test stand again to get the automatic advance set again. I don't figure I'll see it till the end of the week. Maybe my third attempt will be the one. Have certainly lost some sleep over this. 

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Injpumped    0

Did you ever make sure the return circuit on the tractor was open? Some of those older IH tractors had the fuel return in the bottom of the tank, and it had an orifice, and gets plugged up easily. If the return is not open and free flowing from the pump, the advance will not function properly, no matter how you adjust it. I agree, this  simple job has really become a trainwreck. lol!

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Dax DeCelle    0

It was open. I had the tank off a couple months ago. Cleaned it sealed it, painted it. Cleaned out the water trap and repaired it also. Everything was flowing as it should. I am convinced now that I had it retarded a bit too much. I don't think 3* is quite enough, hoping for 4* next time. Sure is hard to get it just right. And I misunderstood my pump guru's instruction and got the guide stud grossly out of adjustment. The bottom line is that I don't know what I'm doing. I've always learned the hard way due to ignorance and lack of money.  Maybe someone can learn from my mistakes. 

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pete23    0

I bet the pump comes off and on easier and quicker now though.   It is called experience.   Good point on that fuel return as I completely forgot about that.   I am going to ASSUME that it is the same as a 460-560 etc and they all have a spring loaded check valve in the fuel return fitting under bottom of tank.  Some guys take the ball and spring out because of problems but that is not the correct thing to do either.  I have seen the ball go right through the spring and block the return.  Other problems in the check valve could partially block it also and cause you a problem. We lost the sale of a new 560 because that check valve was defective but that is another story. 

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